Help with John 20:19-23

ViaCrucis said:

Question: Using Scripture, what is the purpose and significance of Baptism?

Allow me to share a bit about myself. While I am Lutheran today, that was not always the case. I grew up and was raised in the Evangelical tradition, specifically my first childhood church was a non-denominational church, my school was Baptist, and my second childhood church was Pentecostal (Foursquare specifically). What that means is that I used to believe as you do, or at least very similarly.

The problem, as I came to see it, with many of the things I was raised to believe is that much of the "Biblical doctrines" I had been raised to believe weren't biblical at all. More problematic was that much of what I had been taught growing up was directly contradicted by what the Bible did actually say.

Baptism is an example of this. What I was raised to believe about baptism, and what the Bible actually says about baptism were very different.

I was raised to believe that baptism was merely an outward and public demonstration of faith. The problem with that is two-fold:

1) The Bible never calls baptism an outward and public demonstration of faith.
2) The Bible says things that directly contradict that view.

As I came to study the Bible for myself--which led me to eventually becoming Lutheran--I discovered I had lots of questions about the Bible that the answers I had been given simply didn't seem to fit. Baptism is an example of that, I came to have a lot of questions about baptism on the basis of what the Bible says, and what my parents, teachers, pastors, etc gave me didn't answer in any satisfying way. And over the years I have gotten lots of answers that come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. And frequently it came across as a lot of mental gymnastics to avoid the plain reading of Scripture where it seemed like there was little ambiguity to be found. I recognize that there are plenty of things in the Bible which are difficult and ambiguous, which have no clear or definitive answers; but there are things which are presented in straightforward ways.

For example, when the Bible says that Jesus was raised on the third day, this isn't a puzzle or ambiguous statement. The text is very plain: Three days after Jesus died, He stopped being dead, His body got up and He walked out of the tomb, and the tomb was empty. Jesus' disciples saw the Risen Jesus in the flesh. Though, I do still find Christians who insist on telling me that this isn't what the Bible means. As though Jesus inviting His disciples to touch and feel His body of flesh and bone and saying, "A ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see I have". I'm sure, of course, that you and I can agree that when Jesus rose from the dead, that His tomb was literally empty, Jesus' body was literally raised back to life, He was raised glorious from the dead.

So then, for example, I crack open my Bible and I see things like Jesus saying that one is born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5) and according to the traditions of my former churches I was told this refers to physical birth (of water) and spiritual birth (of the Spirit), claiming that the water is the amniotic fluid. I accepted this for a long time, until I learned that nobody ever believed this in Christianity until modern times. And then, when I gave it a little bit more thought, it didn't make any sense. Why would Jesus say that to be born again a person has to first be physically born? Jesus isn't talking to a fetus, he is talking to Nicodemus. And as a rule of thumb, when we preach the Gospel we are preaching to human beings who have already left the womb. But you know what did make sense? It's that Jesus is talking about baptism, after all Jesus says water. And water means water, it's not code, it's not a puzzle, water in John 3:5 means water, H2O. This made even more sense when I learned about the meaning and significance of water in Judaism, specifically ritual washing (called tevilah in Hebrew) in the context of a ritual bath (called a mikveh in Hebrew).

Allow me to expand upon that a little: Nicodemus, a rabbi, comes to Jesus by the cover of night and flatters Jesus a bit. To which Jesus tells Nicodemus that to enter God's kingdom a person must be born again (the Greek wording here seems to have a double meaning, meaning to be born again and from above). Nicodemus' response to this is to ask how this is possible, "shall a man who is fully grown go back into his mother's womb to be born a second time?" Is Nicodemus being dull? Is his interaction with Jesus here not sincere and so he's trying to play word games with Jesus? Regardless of Nicodemus' intent here, Jesus then continues: In order to see God's kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit. Jesus then asks Nicodemus, "How are you a teacher of Israel and yet you do not know these things?" Why does Jesus expect Nicodemus to understand what being born again means? What in Nicodemus' training as rabbi, "a teacher of Israel", should have clued him in on Jesus' meaning? This becomes very clear when we understand the meaning and significance of "baptisms" (aka washing in water) within Judaism. Jews were expected to "baptize" themselves in a ritual bath (a mikveh) before entering the Temple for worship, to purify themselves; priests did the same when they had to perform Temple duties, and there were lots of reasons to do this. But one of the reasons for ritual bathing in a mikveh was for the purpose of conversion.

You see conversion to Judaism always involved a process, for example male converts had to be circumcised (infants and young children included). But regardless of whether one was male or female, conversion from being a Gentile to being a Jew involved a ritual washing in the mikveh. The meaning of this is still present in Judaism to this day: Through the mikveh one effectively dies to their old life as a non-Jew and is born anew as a Jew, to their new life as a Jew. Does that language sound familiar? It should. That is precisely the kind of language the New Testament uses when talking about Christian Baptism.

And, wouldn't you know it, when you look at what Christians have consistently believed about baptism, and about the meaning of Jesus in John 3:5, what I've said here is precisely what generations of Christians have said from the beginning. Allow me to show you a small sampling covering much of the first thousand years:

"Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, 'Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all." - Justin Martyr, First Apology, Ch. 61 (circa 140 AD)

"It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" - Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragments 34, (circa 170-180 AD)

"Wherefore baptism cannot be common to us and to heretics, to whom neither God the Father, nor Christ the Son, nor the Holy Ghost, nor the faith, nor the Church itself, is common. And therefore it behooves those to be baptized who come from heresy to the Church, that so they who are prepared, in the lawful, and true, and only baptism of the holy Church, by divine regeneration, for the kingdom of God, may be born of both sacraments, because it is written, 'Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'" - Cyprian of Carthage, Concerning the Baptism of Heretics (circa 250 AD)

"Now they take alarm from the statement of the Lord, when He says, 'Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God;' because in His own explanation of the passage He affirms, 'Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.' And so they try to ascribe to unbaptized infants, by the merit of their innocence, the gift of salvation and eternal life, buat at the same time, owning to their being unbaptized, to exclude them from the kingdom of heaven." - Augustine of Hippo, A Treatise on the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins, Book 1, Chapter 26 (writing against the Pelagians in 412 AD)

"He redeemed us from corruption through His own passion. He caused the fountain of remission to well forth for us out of His holy and immaculate side, water for our regeneration, and the washing away of our sin and corruption; and blood to drink as the hostage of life ternal. And He laid on us the command to be born again of water and the Spirit, through prayer and invocation the Holy Spirit drawing nigh unto the water. For since man's nature is twofold, consisting of soul and body, He bestowed on us a twofold purification, of water and of the Spirit: the Spirit renewing that part of us which is after His image and likeness, and the water by the grace of the Spirit cleansing the body from sin and delivering it from corruption, the water indeed expressing the image of death, but the Spirit affording the earnest of life." - John of Damascus, An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book 4, Chapter 9 (circa 730 AD)

You may not consider any of these statements of any importance or value. But I do. For me being a Christian means being part of a community of saints stretching back through history, and the sharing of a common faith. I am merely one link in a chain of faith going backward to Christ and forward also to Christ. From the Apostles themselves till now, and from now until the Lord comes again.

-CryptoLutheran

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iwbswiaihl said:

Question: Using Scripture, what is the purpose and significance of Baptism? Let's start with the baptism that John the Baptist was performing and let him tell us what his baptism was from the word of God: 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Notice what John told the Pharisees and Sadducees, show your fruits that verifies your repentance, having turned from your unbelief of who Jesus is, and don't just claim Abraham is your father. John tells them now in essence, your claim of Abraham does not show you have repented of your unbelief that Jesus is the Son of God who takes away the sin of the world, as John 3 will demonstrate. v11 John tells them his baptism is unto(because of their repentance) repentance, and then notice what John tells them about what Jesus baptism is: He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. John as he says, only pictures their repentance from unbelief and faith in Jesus(which they didn't have), but if they had then when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost they will receive the Holy Spirit as he is telling Nicodemus, you must be born from again, meaning born from above, because of the cleansing of word of God and turning someone from their unbelief unto faith in Jesus. That is the effect of the word of God, it cleansing one who believes from the penalty of sin which nullifies the wages of sin is death. Jesus at Calvary paid our sin debt and set us free from the law of sin and death. Read this carefully and look at Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Back to John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. Reading these verses what frees the repentant sinner from being condemned, "whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in him is condemned already. John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” It's the word of God that cleanses from sin, it either produces the faith in a person or they remain in unbelief. As in Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, which once received producing repentance, Romans 10:13 whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, how, Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” This is demonstrated in Ephesian 5 when Paul wrote about the comparison of Husband and wife with Christ and the church,
5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. So we see in these passages in context they demonstrated it is the word of God that convicts, and produces faith in the those who receive it and believe it, that is why we must continue to study to show ourselves approved unto God that we may grow by faith in the word of God and that it is true and is accomplishing his will in our lives, Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. This is the evidence in our hearts, that we desire and obey His transforming power in our lives which He produces in the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, Phil 2:13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

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ViaCrucis said:

I hope this won't come across as rude, but is there anyway you could edit your post here and split it up into paragraphs?

Perhaps I should have been more precise in what I was asking. My question wasn't about the baptism which John the Baptist was performing out in the wilderness, my question was concerning Christian baptism. I'm not seeing you address that in the above. By that I mean, what does it mean when someone is brought to water and they are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit?

I see you also believe in the power of God's word. That's good. What I don't understand is why you are ignoring, for example, the use of the word "water". Paul says in Ephesians 5:26 the "washing of water with the word". Had Paul simply said "washing with the word" I could understand why you'd understand this in a completely figurative sense, but Paul mentions two things involved in washing: water and the word.

The traditional Christian view has a pretty thorough explanation as to why Paul would say "water with the word" here, and that's because God unites His word with things. God's word never comes to us without some kind of means. For example, we have the Scriptures, the Bible itself. We have pastors who preach the word, preach the Gospel. In the Old Testament God gave His word on tablets of stone to Israel on Mt. Horeb, the word of God came through the mouths of the prophets, the words and activities of the priests etc.

So the word is never some invisible ephemeral thing, it is always concrete: written, preached, in and through things. I mean, after all, we confess our Lord Jesus Christ who, as the Eternal and Uncreated Logos, is Himself THE Word of God made flesh. God works through means, He always has.

And in Ephesians 5:26 we see one way that God's word is given and applied, with water. How would the original readers/listeners of Paul's letter to the Ephesians have understood this? What, in their Christian experience, would involve water and word.
-CryptoLuther

What you are not understanding in those verses I showed you, it is the word of God that does the cleansing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The water is simply an illustration of what the word of God is doing in the hearts of mankind. The word produced the faith in the hearts of men, faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17. As in Eph 5 "washing of water with the word" he is saying the word is what produces the faith which washes away their sin when they accept Jesus as their Savior. Surely you ought to be able to see this truth, the word produces the faith and faith washes away the unbelief is what John the Baptist was saying to those Jews. If one gets baptized in the water without having repented of their unbelief they are still dead in their sin of unbelief. The John 6:63 has the same point, "the words that I speak to you they are spirit and they are life" when believing the word of God, it brings conviction in the heart which produces the faith(the belief that what it is saying in context is true). Hebrews 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please God for those that come to Him must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those that seek Him. Heb 11:1 faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen, how does one know they saved? by faith, how does one know their sins are forgiven, by faith. Water baptism produces no faith or anything else, except our being obedient to the word of God, it pictures our death to the sinful nature and our being raised to walk in newness of life, one of obedience. Water baptism simply picture what has happened in the heart, the person believes and is cleansed and baptism pictures their being lowered in the grave(as Jesus was) and being raised from the water baptism simply pictures our being raised from the grave like Jesus when he actually died. And Peter in the Acts 10 context stated the same thing of when baptism is to be administered, they heard the word and believed and as Peter ask the Jews, what now prevents them from being baptized like we were, they had already in context received the Holy Spirit who is only given to believers.

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iwbswiaihl said:

What you are not understanding in those verses I showed you, it is the word of God that does the cleansing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The water is simply an illustration of what the word of God is doing in the hearts of mankind. The word produced the faith in the hearts of men, faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God, Rom 10:17. As in Eph 5 "washing of water with the word" he is saying the word is what produces the faith which washes away their sin when they accept Jesus as their Savior. Surely you ought to be able to see this truth, the word produces the faith and faith washes away the unbelief is what John the Baptist was saying to those Jews. If one gets baptized in the water without having repented of their unbelief they are still dead in their sin of unbelief. The John 6:63 has the same point, "the words that I speak to you they are spirit and they are life" when believing the word of God, it brings conviction in the heart which produces the faith(the belief that what it is saying in context is true). Hebrews 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please God for those that come to Him must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those that seek Him. Heb 11:1 faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen, how does one know they saved? by faith, how does one know their sins are forgiven, by faith. Water baptism produces no faith or anything else, except our being obedient to the word of God, it pictures our death to the sinful nature and our being raised to walk in newness of life, one of obedience. Water baptism simply picture what has happened in the heart, the person believes and is cleansed and baptism pictures their being lowered in the grave(as Jesus was) and being raised from the water baptism simply pictures our being raised from the grave like Jesus when he actually died. And Peter in the Acts 10 context stated the same thing of when baptism is to be administered, they heard the word and believed and as Peter ask the Jews, what now prevents them from being baptized like we were, they had already in context received the Holy Spirit who is only given to believers.

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ViaCrucis said:

So when Paul said "washing of water with the word" he actually means "washing of the word with the word"?

Again, I'm not talking about John's baptism. I'm talking about Christian baptism.

Or perhaps we can take a step back: Do you believe there is such a thing as Christian baptism? Specifically, what did Jesus mean when He said "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit"? What does baptizing refer to here?

-CryptoLutheran

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iwbswiaihl said:

I cannot go farther about Christian baptism until you see clearly the point on what cleanses the sinner of the law of sin and dead!

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It is as scripture states, the wages of sin is death, the penalty all sinners have to pay is the wages of sin is death, so unless that debt is paid in the perfect sacrifice for our sin debt, Jesus came into the world as the spotless lamb of God which takes away the sin debt for all who believe that He paid our sin debt by laying down His sinless life as our substitute for the penalty of sin to all who believe. John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. Faith in Him comes by hearing the word of God and believing it and confessing Him as Lord, Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Each of these verses in context show the means of salvation, whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, by grace are you saved through faith, not of works, we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, good works are produced by faith coming from and in the word of God, Heb 11:6 without faith it is impossible to please Him for they that come after Him must believe that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. All this I have shown here tell us it is His word that is working in us which produces the good works. Phil 2:13 for it is God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. You ask: Specifically, what did Jesus mean when He said "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit"? What does baptizing refer to here? Exactly what it says, Matt 28:18
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” So, what does this great commission teach His disciples to do, make disciple, baptize them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey what He has commanded, which are told us in the word of God. Once again, Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35 but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. 36 He has sent this message to the people of Israel, proclaiming the gospel of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.39 We are witnesses of all that He did, both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And although they put Him to death by hanging Him on a tree, 40God raised Him up on the third day and caused Him to be seen. 41 not by all the people, but by the witnesses God had chosen beforehand, by us who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead. 42And He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One appointed by God to judge the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.” 44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message. 45 All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and exalting God. Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay for a few days. NOW pay special attention as to when Peter said the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, was it when they heard the word of God and it produced the faith in them to believe it or was it after their water baptism which had not taken place yet ? The Jews with Peter could not refute what they had just seen happen and Peter you notice, ask them in verse 47 “Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” So you tell me, why do some say the Holy Spirit comes after the ordnance of baptism? Instead of after they repent of their unbelief and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ which is exactly why the passage in Matthrew is important, John's baptism was as he said, Matt 3:8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Faith comes by hearing the word of God and is what cleanses all who believe as the scriptures clearly teach, the jailer ask, what must I do to be saved? Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household". Christian baptism you ask, it shows those viewing that one has confessed the Lord as their Savior, the true disciples will then begin to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ because of what I will repeat in Phil 2:13 for it is God working in us to will and to obey, if there is no abiding fruit of the Spirit there is no root, as John 15:5 states. Also Eph 2:10 tells us we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good work, if the word does not produce the faith, there can be no fruit of the Spirit. We walk by faith and not by sight. Hope this fully answer your question. If I didn't state it above, John's baptism is the Christian baptism example, they repented after hearing the word or the water dipping was just that, going under water, no one fools the Lord, only true believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

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ViaCrucis said:

The once and perfect work of Christ, which is given to us by the grace of God through His word (the Gospel) and received through faith is what reckons us justified before God.

With that out of the way, could you please now explain to me what you think the purpose of Christian baptism is? Because it seems you are trying to avoid having an honest conversation.



I'm not sure that any of this really tells me what you think the purpose of baptism is.

Also, you keep saying "receive the Holy Spirit after baptism", which isn't something I've said. I said that the Holy Spirit is received in Word and Sacrament, the baptized Christian has received the Holy Spirit because that is a promise attached to Baptism.

Baptism is not a prerequisite to receive the Holy Spirit. Baptism is means of grace through which God works, and that includes receiving the Holy Spirit. It's why we see baptism and the laying on of hands together in the Acts of the Apostles. In the 19th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles when St. Paul meets a group of John the Baptist's followers he has them baptized and then lays hands on them. This is why the Church has always done this.

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost and at Cornelius' house were pretty special and unique events, were they not? This is not merely receiving the Holy Spirit through the ordinary means, but is the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" which you yourself quote from Scripture here in this post.

Christ baptized His Church with the Holy Spirit when He kept His faithful promise that He would go to His Father and they would send the Paraclete. Is that not what John the Baptist said? Is that not what Jesus Himself said? Is that not what we read explicitly happening in the text of Scripture?

It's not that baptism with the Holy Spirit is an individual experience that every Christian has, it's the corporate reality of the Church. The way you and I receive the Holy Spirit isn't by a sudden and miraculous outpouring of the Holy Spirit, but through the simple and ordinary means of God. You yourself quote Ephesians 1:13 which shows this.

Rather than going into other tangents, I would like to keep this simple: According to you, what is the purpose of Christian baptism? What is the reason Christ instituted baptism for His Church? Please provide biblical support for your position.

-CryptoLutheran

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iwbswiaihl said:

Your comments on when one receives the Holy Spirit is not quite as clear as you keep saying, why don't you do as you ask me, simply tell me this, is the Holy Spirit given before water baptism or not after a person has expressed faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?

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Just as you say this: Also, you keep saying "receive the Holy Spirit after baptism", which isn't something I've said. I said that the Holy Spirit is received in Word and Sacrament, the baptized Christian has received the Holy Spirit because that is a promise attached to Baptism. And this isn't scriptural, show me where it says exactly what you state here in this reply. The scriptures actually say one receives the Holy Spirit when they by faith repent of their unbelief by confessing to Him that they believe He is their Lord and Savior at the time this happens, Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. Having believed they receive the Holy Spirit which you have agreed when I posted Eph 1:13. It says nothing about the Sacraments is when the lost person first receives the Holy Spirit in their new birth. If it does, show it to me as you ask me to do, thx.

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The purpose of baptism is to picture that saints are being buried with Christ into the death of our old nature and risen to walk in the new Spirit lead life produced by the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives that demonstration Christ in us as His body in the world. Romans 6:1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer? 3Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. 6We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. 7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. 10The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God. 11So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires. 13Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

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