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Help on Job, please

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untilifindanewsn

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I was wondering about an issue, praying upon it, when God impressed upon me to read Job, presumably to answer my problem. I tried to read Job, but got only past a few chapters before going to bed. Later, I forgot, then he impressed it upon me again while praying. I tried to study Job, but this time I just flipped open to a page, which happened to be Job, which the first verse of which I read appeared to answer my question clearly. I thought that it might be a miracle. However, after further rereading, I am wondering if it is a coincidence. So, coud someone please explain to me what

14 For God does speak—now one way, now another—
though man may not perceive it.


15 In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men
as they slumber in their beds,

16 he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,

17 to turn man from wrongdoing
and keep him from pride,

18 to preserve his soul from the pit, [b]
his life from perishing by the sword. [c]

19 Or a man may be chastened on a bed of pain
with constant distress in his bones,

20 so that his very being finds food repulsive
and his soul loathes the choicest meal.

21 His flesh wastes away to nothing,
and his bones, once hidden, now stick out.

22 His soul draws near to the pit, [d]
and his life to the messengers of death. [e]

23 "Yet if there is an angel on his side
as a mediator, one out of a thousand,
to tell a man what is right for him,

24 to be gracious to him and say,
'Spare him from going down to the pit [f] ;
I have found a ransom for him'-

25 then his flesh is renewed like a child's;
it is restored as in the days of his youth.

26 He prays to God and finds favor with him,
he sees God's face and shouts for joy;
he is restored by God to his righteous state.

27 Then he comes to men and says,
'I sinned, and perverted what was right,
but I did not get what I deserved.

28 He redeemed my soul from going down to the pit, [g]
and I will live to enjoy the light.'

29 "God does all these things to a man—
twice, even three times-
30 to turn back his soul from the pit, [h]
that the light of life may shine on him.

means it would greatly help my faith. I was praying about whether or not a vision (the Paul kind, not the dream kind) which came to me was a hallucination or not. I know that it was real, but still, doubt after all these years has a way of creeping in.
 

nephilimiyr

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I'd really like to help but I don't understand what it is you want answered or help with. If you had a vision years ago and now are doubting it all I can say is that I know others who had visions and they're not crazy or prone to seeing hallucinations. All of these people I know of had come out of deep oppression of somekind whether by natural causes or by supernatural causes. Actually they all come about through the supernatural but if this is what the problem is I'm sure I don't have to explain that to you.

Now just because you saw a vision doesn't mean it was from God. Try to remember back to when it happend and what was the message. Did you benefit from it in anyway? Did you learn anything from it?
 
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ischus

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The passage you are talking about in Job 33 is when Elihu has joined the conversation and is now trying to (humbly) give Job some real wisdom.

Job has been complaining that God doesn’t speak to him or show up to explain his (God's) actions. Elihu answers these questions that Job has. Elihu says that God speaks all the time, but nobody ever notices it. God speaks in more than one way, not just audibly. He speaks in gentle, silent, hidden ways as well (dreams, visions, etc.). (Cf. Eliphaz’s first speech.) In fact, he shows three ways that God speaks:

3 Ways in which God speaks to man


  • Gentle voice (to the humble) in dreams, visions, etc.
  • Chastening to teach reliance on God, not on the self. (Keeps man from making his body into his God.)
  • Through a (human) messenger [mal’ak][aggeloV]
In v24, “ransom” is a price paid for the deliverance of a man from death. Elihu is going to help deliver Job from death. Job deserves to be struck dead by God. If Job got what he wanted (Justice) he would be dead. But Elihu sees the big picture, and he will plead for mercy on Job. Job doesn't need Justice. He needs to be Justified, and that is what Elihu will show him.

vv29ff Show that Elihu is God’s instrument to teach Job wisdom.
 
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untilifindanewsn

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I had a vision of light in my room after my first prayer. I remember the thought process beforehand, including the sermon about not being a "fencepost" christian, praying my first real prayer (as in not just reciting words), looking up at it, falling down of my face afterwards, everything. From there on out, I became religious, prayed daily, and dedicated my life to God. But years later, an athiest told me about how children of 10 - 12 are most prone to hallucinations. This just made me wonder that if it was a hallucination, where would that put my faith? Where would I fall back? If that single tangible evidence of God's existence in my life was taken away, how could I logically believe? I was feeling farther and farther from God, but realizing this, I prayed about it. "Was it real?" "What if it wasn't?" Anyways, God impressed upon me to read Job, which is where I am now. I hope this helps you, Nephhilimyr. And thank you for helping me , Ischus.

Now, to me, praying about whether a vision was genuinely from God or not, and then being led to a passage about how God sends visions to help people is simply too much to be a coincidence. But I just want to be sure. How does my experience relate to what Elihu is saying?
 
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nephilimiyr

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untilifindanewsn said:
I had a vision of light in my room after my first prayer. I remember the thought process beforehand, including the sermon about not being a "fencepost" christian, praying my first real prayer (as in not just reciting words), looking up at it, falling down of my face afterwards, everything. From there on out, I became religious, prayed daily, and dedicated my life to God. But years later, an athiest told me about how children of 10 - 12 are most prone to hallucinations. This just made me wonder that if it was a hallucination, where would that put my faith? Where would I fall back? If that single tangible evidence of God's existence in my life was taken away, how could I logically believe? I was feeling farther and farther from God, but realizing this, I prayed about it. "Was it real?" "What if it wasn't?" Anyways, God impressed upon me to read Job, which is where I am now. I hope this helps you, Nephhilimyr. And thank you for helping me , Ischus.

Now, to me, praying about whether a vision was genuinely from God or not, and then being led to a passage about how God sends visions to help people is simply too much to be a coincidence. But I just want to be sure. How does my experience relate to what Elihu is saying?
Thanks untilifindanewsn. I didn't recieve any visions when I first believed and I still believe. I'm just saying that you don't need a vision from God in order to believe in him. And on a side note, that athiest doesn't know what he talking about, probably just trying to explain away something he refuses to believe.
John 20:29, Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
We believe because God gives us faith to believe. It's through faith from the grace of God that we are saved. I do believe there are exceptions as I had pointed out in the other post. Some people who have gone through certain oppressions report seeing visions of an angel from the Lord come and help them or even Jesus Christ himself. there's a lady here at CF that has posted her testimony of the day when Jesus Christ came and delivered her out of the strongholds of the enemy. so yes, these things do happen. That lady does still visit CF from time to time and if I see her around I will ask her to share her story with you. In fact, we're good friends and I'll just pm her and ask her to join in on the thread.

From what you have written tells me that the Holy Spirit is directing you. Just keep listening and obeying Him and He will bring you into all truth and pray aways! From what Elihu is saying could very well be confirming to you that what you experienced was true and the Holy Spirit directing you to those passages is Him comforting you and letting you know that you are set free!!!:clap:

God Bless!
 
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StAnselm

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untilifindanewsn said:
I just flipped open to a page, which happened to be Job, which the first verse of which I read appeared to answer my question clearly... However, after further rereading, I am wondering if it is a coincidence.

Well, it is a dangerous way of doing Bible study. After all, every passage of the Bible needs to be read in context. And Job is one of the hardest books to understand, especially if you don't read the whole book.

The thing is, the last few chapters of the book turn everything on its head. Job's friends appear to say sensible stuff, but God declares that they haven't been representing him truly (41:7). So we can't take what they say at face value.

ischus said:
vv29ff Show that Elihu is God’s instrument to teach Job wisdom.

No, it shows that Elihu thinks he is God's instrument. God never says that!
 
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sawdust

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untilifindanewsn said:
Now, to me, praying about whether a vision was genuinely from God or not, and then being led to a passage about how God sends visions to help people is simply too much to be a coincidence. But I just want to be sure. How does my experience relate to what Elihu is saying?

Ultimately only you can really answer how your experience relates, this is why the scripture says:

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" Phil.2:12

Yet how well we work it out is determined by how well we learn the Truth of Jesus Christ. For this reason each of us need to be under the authority of a pastor who teaches the Word of God accurately.

The scriptures are God's revelation to us of how He thinks and acts, what His plans are and why things are the way they are. We need to apply ourselves to them every day so that we may come to understand and know the Lord.

"as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious." 1Peter 2:2-3

When we first come to Christ we are just like a newborn babe. It's a whole new world and can be very confusing to us. There is much to learn and each of us must learn according to our own pace. The Lord never takes you beyond your capacity. Like a little babe who teeters and wobbles and falls down when trying to learn to walk, so it is like that when we are learning to grow in Christ. At first it seems very hard and awkward but the more you come to know Jesus Christ, what He has done and who He is, the easier your walk becomes.

I can strongly empathise with your doubts and confusion for my own life has been one of many "supernatural events". Some good, some bad. I doubted my sanity on many occasions. I cannot tell you whether your vision was hallucination or not but I can assure you that such visions can and do occur. However if I have learnt anything of the Lord then the real question that needs to be asked is not whether your vision was real or not but rather who do you trust.

We are to be a people who walk by faith in the Word of God. Jesus Christ is the Word! He is the object and content of our faith. Faith and doubt do not exist together because:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb.11:1

and

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom.10:17

What our doubts reveal about us is that we lack knowledge of the Lord. So how do we combat them? With faith which, is what we do know.
I have a rule of thumb which may be helpful. Don't worry about the things you don't know, rather be concerned about what you do know yet do not rest in. Do you know that God is? If you answer yes, then you have a place to rest in faith. Do you know He sent Jesus Christ into the world? If yes, you have an added place of faith in which to rest. Do you know He died for your sins? As long as you are answering yes, you are adding faith to faith.

"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.” Rom.1:17

When you reach the question whereby you answer 'don't know', then you need to back off to the previous answer and rest at that spot in faith knowing that the Lord will lead you in the paths of righteousness. That is a promise of God. There are over seven thousand promises of God in the scriptures. Every day we make choices to believe what the Lord has said in His Word. The basis for the decision is not what we feel or experience but because it is the Lord who has said it. When we make that decision the Lord is gracious to us and gives us the faith we need to overcome our doubts and fears. God's grace is the power at work in our lives, it is a gift working through faith.

As you apply the above you will eventually reach the place whereby you will not need to ask another as to whether your vision was real or from the Lord because you will have assurance in your own soul according to the Word of the Lord. For the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth and He bears witness with our spirit of that truth.

A teacher of the Word can tell you what that passage means but only you can apply it to your soul. And this principle applies with any passage of scripture.

I know I have not given you the answer you seek but that is only because I cannot. What you experience in life must be worked out between you and the Lord. If it is any consolation I can assure you that if you seek Him and learn His Word then you will know peace in your soul whether you fully understand or not and the assurance you seek will come.

May the Lord bless and keep you as you learn to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

peace
 
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untilifindanewsn



I think the story of Job shows that no matter how learned someone may sound, it may not be exactly what God wants to teach you, but that God will eventually make things crystal clear.

And atheists pretty much call anything visual, that can't be explained, an hallucination.

I would combine these two statements for your answer. Don't let the enemy take away your faith.
 
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nephilimiyr

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StAnselm said:
Yes, I think that God is upstaging Elihu - he totally ignores him, which is more poignant than a rebuke.

But Elihu was saying that God couldn't speak for himself, and then God proved him wrong.
Ah but see that's the whole thing. God doesn't "upstage" Elihu or punish him like He does the others because Elihu was speaking for God. In the last chapter God makes sure all who wasn't speaking for him got their just rewards but as you will find, Elihu was not among them.

Elihu was the only one who came to Job speaking truth.

Show me where Elihu says God can't speak for himself please.
 
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StAnselm

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nephilimiyr said:
Show me where Elihu says God can't speak for himself please.

Or rather, that it's not proper for man for God to appear in person at at the trial. I'm thinking of verses like 34:23 -

For he need not further consider a man, that he should go before God in judgment.
 
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