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Help! need help debating an evolutionist!

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Assyrian

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Just because people take Adam as a historical person you think they should accept all your other interpretations of Genesis? I think your problem here is you are mistaking your interpretation of Genesis for what Moses, Jesus and the NT writers actually taught. Disagreeing with you is not the same as not believing Jesus.

That is going to be a major problem for you theology then because Luke didn't think his genealogy was accurate. He reports the genealogy as 'supposed'.

Luke 3:23 When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli...

It is not the only time Luke tells us what people supposed about Jesus.

Luke 9:18 Now it happened that as he was praying alone, the disciples were with him. And he asked them, "Who do the crowds say that I am?"
19 And they answered, "John the Baptist. But others say, Elijah, and others, that one of the prophets of old has risen."


It doesn't mean Jesus was Elijah or John the Baptist, or that what the people supposed really was Jesus' genealogy.
 
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Pythons

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I'm confused by what you mean here. Could you please elaborate?

T.E. teaches that at Adam and Eve's conception God infused their respective soul ( like it happened for you and me ) therefore, since it's rejected in T.E. that God created Adam & Eve as fully grown adults both became "human" in the belly of a hominid animal that did not have a soul.

As crude and horrific as this may sound it gets worse as the actual mechanics of conception defaults into a male animal blasting sperm into a female animal which in turn gives birth to Adam.

If Adam was the "first" and he didn't "evolve", his Mother was either an ape or type of ape-like "animal". This is my great difficulty in accepting T.E. as firstly this part of it just sounds (to me) so horrific and forgive me for saying it, Satanic.

I accept certain aspects of evolution as fact and believe God designed his creation the ability to mutate or adapt (evolve) to a variety of situations and have no problems whatsoever with this part of it ( like whales may have started out on land ) but whereas man is concerned I have a hard time accepting something without a soul gave birth to a human with one.

Perhaps I didn't say it right but this is what I mean.
 
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Calypsis4

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Some of the people in the lineage represent people groups and not individuals.

1. Tell us which ones are groups and not individuals.

2. Prove it.

3. If the ages mentioned in Genesis are not literal then what are they? For what purpose were they even mentioned if we cannot indeed get a close idea as to the time of earths history?
 
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Calypsis4

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Best wishes
 
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Calypsis4

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I hope you give this some serious thought because you are in serious error.
 
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Mallon

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I wouldn't say TE "teaches" that. It's uncertainly an interpretation consistent with TE, but it isn't the only option. Denis Lamoureux offers other approaches in his book Evolutionary Creation. Might be worth checking out.
Regardless, I don't see why the scenario you present is a problem. Maybe a bit unorthodox, but why should it be a problem? Even the Bible says God created man without a soul, only later breathing into him the breath of life. Maybe the first man (or men) was born without a soul, only later being given one by God.

If Adam was the "first" and he didn't "evolve", his Mother was either an ape or type of ape-like "animal". This is my great difficulty in accepting T.E. as firstly this part of it just sounds (to me) so horrific and forgive me for saying it, Satanic.
For the life of me, I can't understand why. (Humans are technically still apes, by the way. You can't outgrow your ancestry.)
 
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Pythons

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I wouldn't say TE "teaches" that. It's uncertainly an interpretation consistent with TE, but it isn't the only option. Denis Lamoureux offers other approaches in his book Evolutionary Creation. Might be worth checking out.

I'm certainly willing to read anything on the subject. As of yet, everything I've boiled down to the essentials has, in the end, an animal getting bred followed by Adam being dumped on the ground. Everything about T.E. makes sense to me except for this.

Mallon said:
Regardless, I don't see why the scenario you present is a problem. Maybe a bit unorthodox, but why should it be a problem?

For starters, it sounds so outlandish it could be comedy if not for what I see as serious theological problems that pushes it into the area of blasphemy.

Mallon said:
Even the Bible says God created man without a soul, only later breathing into him the breath of life. Maybe the first man (or men) was born without a soul, only later being given one by God.

That's possible according to the text of Scripture but if chronology is factored in it fails, i.e. Adam and Eve were thrown out of Paradise after removing themselves from the Grace of God. The special "animals", plants, etc that were have said to specifically placed by God have no meaning and default into one of those animals giving birth to Adam.

Mallon said:
For the life of me, I can't understand why. (Humans are technically still apes, by the way. You can't outgrow your ancestry.)

Yes, we are very ape-like and I would go so far to say that we are a higher form of ape. My problem isn't there at all, it's about an ape that could not talk giving birth to a man who learned all on his own to talk. Perhaps I will get it in the future but as for now I can't get past the Adam thing.
 
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laconicstudent

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For starters, it sounds so outlandish it could be comedy if not for what I see as serious theological problems that pushes it into the area of blasphemy.


About that... You are aware that the Theory of Evolution has been declared to be compatible with the doctrine of the Christian faith by multiple Popes? Pope Pius XII in his encyclical Humani Generis recognized Evolutionary Theory as a definite possibility for explaining human physical origins, provided it didn't attempt to explain away souls.

Pope John Paul II in his 1996 address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences said:


Your claim that Theistic Evolution is blasphemous is curious in light of the fact that there is highly public evidence that the Holy Fathers have said exactly the opposite.
 
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Assyrian

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"All my other interpretations"? I'm not giving you interpretations. I am giving you the truth that Jesus spoke.
Jesus never mentioned Adam and Eve or a six day creation. You are simply reading your interpretation of Genesis into what Jesus said because he quoted Genesis.

As far as 'evolution' is concerned, there is nothing to 'interpret' friend. There is no hint of evolution anywhere in God's Word. You are left with ZIP...ZERO.
There isn't a hint of the world being spherical, orbiting the sun, the inverse square law of gravity, bacteria, DNA, electro magnetism. Doesn't mean they aren't true. Doesn't mean we shouldn't accept them as fact.

Interesting how you can dismiss a plain statement in the gospel. You insist we accept your interpretation as the plain spoken words of Jesus but anything inconvenient for you is written off as a 'manner of speaking'. Yet accuse me of dishonesty.

Where do you get the idea of Jesus followers guessing about his lineage? Luke said nothing about it being Jesus followers who supposed this was Jesus lineage. He simple said it was what was supposed, with no specific reference to Jesus followers. In fact Luke was talking about when Jesus began his ministry, he didn't have any followers yet. Nor was it a matter of guessing, supposed means this is what people thought. Your 'guessing about his lineage' is simply a straw man. So is your attempt to dismiss it as idiom.

It is true that supposed tells us what was commonly believed or what individuals believed. It also tells us the person using the word 'supposed' simply regards it as an opinion rather than affirming it as true.

Matt 5:17 Don't suppose that I came to do away with the Law and the Prophets. I did not come to do away with them, but to give them their full meaning.
Matt 20:9 When those who were hired at about the eleventh hour came, they each received a denarius. 10 When the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise each received a denarius.
Luke 2:44 but supposing him to be in the group they went a day's journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances,
Acts 7:25 He supposed that his brothers would understand that God was giving them salvation by his hand, but they did not understand.
Acts 8:20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
Acts 14:19 But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having persuaded the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing that he was dead.
Acts 16:27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped.
Acts 21:29 For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian with him in the city, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple.

Luke no more believed this was Jesus genealogy than he though Jesus went home from the temple with Mary and Joseph's relatives, that Paul ran away from prison in Philippi, or that he brought the Ephesian Trophimus into the temple in Jerusalem.

Did Luke waste his time telling us people thought Jesus was Elijah or John the Baptist? Why do you think I quoted that passage. It was so you wouldn't make claims like that. Just because the reason you though Luke gave the genealogy isn't true, it doesn't mean Luke had no reason to do so. Luke had just as much reason to tell us what people supposed Jesus genealogy was as to tell us they thought he was Elijah. It wasn't true that he was Elijah, it was true that they thought it. People's reactions to Jesus and what they thought about him were an important part of the gospel account too.

If the Holy Spirit was giving the genealogy 'to confirm the Davidic blood line for Jesus' why would he inspire Luke to say the genealogy was 'supposed'? This Davidic bloodline is purely your interpetation of the genealogy, the bible nowhere says that this was Luke's purpose in writing it. And it certainly does not make sense to confirm a bloodline with popular supposition.

What kind of 'faith' do you have friend? Is Jesus the Son of David or not? Is He God's Son or not?
Sure he is. Doesn't mean I have to believe a genealogy is inerrant when the writer of the gospel describes it as supposition.

I hope you give this some serious thought because you are in serious error.
I think it is much more dangerous to mistake your opinions and interpretation for the words of Jesus. Makes it so much difficult to learn where you are in error. It leaves you hardened to the Holy Spirit and unteachable. After all, your opinions are what Jesus believe too. How can you change? Why should you change? It would be wrong to change.
 
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Cabal

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Sorry to drop in on this late, but just thought I'd respond to the points you raised, Pythons:


Have to say I'm not quite sure what theological evolution means or how it ties in with this, but one could argue that that's what happened once we evolved to a particular level, we became sentient, introspective - maybe at that stage we became aware of God as well.


The law of biogenesis is only really true on certain scales, if you think about it. The individual atoms that make up our bodies aren't alive, but the whole clearly is. There has to have been a point where mechanisms operated to bring inanimate matter together to form simple replicating systems.

My suggestion is to find the most solid "proof" for both sides and put them against each other and if it comes down to a matter of faith stick with the one that elevates Christ the most.

Not a bad position to work from, but I suspect people's ideas about what elevates Christ and what does not will differ....


This somewhat ties in with my first point about evolving to a particular level to be aware of God, why is it necessary that there was a point where God actively infused a soul into us? Couldn't that just be representative of coming to a point where we became the first species to become self aware and aware of our maker?


I think you're not quite understanding the idea of how speciation works, it's not the case that two individual ape-like animals bred and out popped a human - speciation is much more gradual than that.

If two or more groups of animals (note, not individuals) become geographically isolated from each other, then eventually so many differences in their genes will occur due to different selective pressures that their genes will no longer be compatible for forming offspring. However, on the level of appearance the individuals from the two groups may well still look very similar indeed.

As an example, there are very interesting population dynamics in ring species: Ring species - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It contains a great example of some Arctic gulls, those physically close can hybridise, whereas those further away are less likely to. It also illustrates well the point that speciation is not exactly a discrete barrier, but rather a continuum of genetic variation.

So to return to your initial point: homo sapiens sapiens and the other apes arose from a divergence, most likely caused by some geographical isolation, and from there their intelligence, sentience etc was shaped by natural selection. Who exactly Adam and Eve were, well, I personally think they're more symbolic rather than literal. But if that's too much for you, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think they weren't the only humans created to begin with (you've got to wonder where the wives for Seth and Cain came from and how one family line can diversify outwards rather than ending up horribly inbred).

Maybe I've just addressed one question to spawn several others! But I think it's important to realise that Adam wouldn't be brought forth from an animal, as you describe it. He would have been brought forth from a population of similar individuals who were rapidly changing from the other creatures they diverged from.
 
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Mallon

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Lamoureux argues that humanity gradually attained the image of God as we evolved and that this was achieved at the population level, rather than within a pair of humans. Regardless of the scenario you accept, is it that you don't understand it, or that you simply don't like it?

For starters, it sounds so outlandish it could be comedy if not for what I see as serious theological problems that pushes it into the area of blasphemy.
Again, though, what theological problem are you referring to? I understand you have a problem with humans being evolved from other apes, but you still haven't explained exactly what the problem is. What is the problem with God selecting a pair (or even a population) of animals to receive His image? Do you also find it reprehensible that God chose Abraham from an ordinary stock to head the Jews? Is it similarly blasphemous that Jesus Christ was born of a sinful mother?
 
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Dark_Lite

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The soul of Adam and Eve is a slightly different topic, but in Catholicism it is necessary to believe that all souls are immediately created by God when it comes to the birth of humans.
 
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lucaspa

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Good for you. You should have agreed.


You didn't go wrong. Faith based claims cannot be taught in science class: either theistic or atheistic. Science is agnostic.

However, creationism/ID are actually scientific theories. They make testable, falsifiable claims. Basically, they are a "God made it this way" type of statement. That is, the are a method of creation. We can test, by science, the method. Creationism/ID have been tested and shown to be false. God did not create that way.

Now, does this affect the faith statements "God exists" and "God created"? NO! The logical problems you are having are:

1. You are tying the existence of God to a particular method of creation. If God didn't create by creationism/ID, you are saying that God did not create. I hope you can see the does-not-follow.
2. You think creationism/ID is valid. It's not. You cannot teach a falsified theory as valid in any class, but certainly not in a science class. You could teach creationism/ID like we teach flat earth or geocentrism -- as the falsified theories they are -- but we absolutely cannot teach them as valid scientific theories.
 
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Calypsis4

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That is a dishonest position.

Any discrepencies in the historical text (which dates beck before the Septuagint 250 B.C.) does not change the fact that the disciples were revealing the Davidic heritage of the Lord Jesus Christ and his right to the throne of David in the coming kingdom.

Where do you find ANY hints from Moses, the prophets, the authors of the New Testament, or even from Jesus Himself that the six days of creation, Adam & Eve, the fall of man, and the flood of Noah were anything other than real/literal/historical?

Chapter and verse please.

Don't give us human reasoning, give us scripture.

And tell us this: which of the following two events was/is literal/real and which one is not? Jesus said,

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Luke 17:24-27.

Did Jesus base His second coming on a storybook tale that never really happened? Tell the readers, please. Don't avoid the issue.
 
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Calypsis4

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That's how fundamentalism works.

Really?

Never mind the fact that you and those like you ignore the most important facts and you use tortured logic to arrive at the dishonest conclusions you come to.

The thing that bothers me about your presence on this particular thread is that it was started by a question from a young person looking for other creationists to help him with a problem and YOU....had the audacity to answer him.

He didn't ask YOU nor anyone of your persuasion.

I am an ex-evolutionist.
 
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