Help me to understand the Trinity

_epoh_ said:

Hi,

I haven't written here in a little while. I'm learning about Christianity and I'm trying to understand the Trinity.

After reading some Biblical passages, watching debates and podcasts about the subject, I'm still unsure how to grasp the concept of the Trinity. I'd like to present my thoughts and ask for feedback and corrections to help me learn.

God the Father created the Son and the Holy Spirit.

God the Father created the universe and heavens, for the Son to oversee.

The Son volunteered tocome to earth in human form, with the agreement between He and the Father that He would deliver the message and His suffering and sacrifice would be the price to atone for the sins of humankind.

Humankind can then choose to accept and take that path, as through the Son, they reach the Father.

The Son csends divine revelations and messages to humankind through the Holy Spirit.

The Father is one God, the Son is not God and neither is the Holy Spirit. They are his creations to oversee the world and humankind.​

Please correct me where needed and please provide explanations and links if possible.

Thank you.

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God the Father created the Son and the Holy Spirit.

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The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are uncreated, co-eternal. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; not three Gods, but one God. Three Persons, one Being.

God the Father created the universe and heavens, for the Son to oversee.

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The Son is the One by whom all things were made. The Son is also Creator of all things, because He is of the same Being of His Father, being therefore "God of God" as we confess in the Nicene Creed. It is true that all things were made "by Him and for Him". In a sense, yes, God created all things for Christ. But this must be understood in the larger framework of salvation, creation, and Church.

The Son volunteered tocome to earth in human form, with the agreement between He and the Father that He would deliver the message and His suffering and sacrifice would be the price to atone for the sins of humankind.

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That's a very transactional way to see it, it wasn't an agreement between the Father and the Son. It is about God bringing Himself into the world for the purpose of healing and saving the world. God became man in order that all creation should be brought up and out of the bondage of sin and death; and this is accomplished by His life, death, resurrection, ascension, and coming again. Christians have historically spoken of Christ rising on the "eighth day of the week", an allusion to the days of creation in Genesis. The point being made is that Christ, by His resurrection, is beginning of the New Creation of God, by His resurrection and destroying the power of death He brings renewal of not just humanity, but all creation. Which is why Christians look forward to the future resurrection of the dead and the restoration of all creation.

It's not about transaction, it's about participation. God participates in our humanity, in order to redeem our humanity and bring us into reconciliation with Him.

Humankind can then choose to accept and take that path, as through the Son, they reach the Father.

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There are different views among many Christians when it comes to salvation. This position you state here is one I would associate primarily with certain kinds of Protestants who subscribe to what is called "Decisionism". The idea of "asking Jesus into your heart" or "making Jesus one's personal Lord and Savior" are ideas associated with Decisionism.

I'm a Lutheran, in the Lutheran tradition we maintain that salvation is the work of God alone. God comes down, we don't go up. God comes down and meets us in our weakness, in our fragility, in our sin in order to rescue and redeem us. Christ died and Christ rose, Christ ascended, and Christ is coming again. We are not saved by an act of our power or will, we are saved by the objective work of Christ which God gives us as pure gift, making it our own by giving us faith. Faith itself is a work and gift of God.

Thus we teach that God works through His external Means, Word and Sacrament. That the preaching of the Gospel actually creates faith (Romans 10:17), that in the Sacrament of Holy Baptism we are truly born again (John 3:5, Titus 3:5), cleansed by Christ in the "washing of water with the word" (Ephesians 5:26), are united to Christ's death, resurrection, and life (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13), clothed with Jesus Christ Himself (Galatians 3:27). And for this reason, "Baptism now saves you" (1 Peter 3:21). Likewise we understand that in the Holy Eucharist, the Lord's Supper, that Christ gives us His true and very flesh and blood in, with, and under the bread and wine; sustaining, nourishing, and healing us with God's mercy.

The Son csends divine revelations and messages to humankind through the Holy Spirit.

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No. But the Holy Spirit is the promised Comforter who bears Christ and His Gospel to His Church. The Spirit ministers to us, and by His power keeps us united together in Christ. And the Spirit keeps the Church in true faith, so that we can be confident that we preach and believe what has been preached and believed since the beginning. Holding firm to the apostolic faith. That doesn't mean we get to be infallible, but rather it means that we can be confident in the word which we have heard from the beginning.

The Father is one God, the Son is not God and neither is the Holy Spirit. They are his creations to oversee the world and humankind.

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"The [Christian] faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Being.

For the Person of the Father is distinct; and so the Person of the Son distinct, and that of the Holy Spirit distinct. But the Deity of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty co-eternal.

That which the Father is, the Son and the Holy Spirit have likewise. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is infinite, the Son is infinite, and the Holy Spirit is infinite.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.

Yet there are not three eternals, but one Eternal.
So also there are not three uncreated or infinites; there is only the One Uncreated and Infinite.

Likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, and the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighties, but only one Almighty.

Therefore the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods, but only one God.

The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord. Yet there are not three lords, but only one Lord." - The Athanasian Creed

-CryptoLutheran

Unfortunately, what I heard William Branham say on that tape is verrrry unorthodox, so I'd urge you to continue studying, "epoh."

public hermit said:

That makes sense. However, not to be contrary, but the orthodox position is that the Son is eternally generated by the Father. So, there never was a time the Son was not, but has always been the generated Son of the Father.

The Cappadocian Fathers, who basically hammered out the details of our orthodox understanding of the Trinity, asserted that the the only difference within the Godhead is causal. The Father is eternally not-generated, the Son is eternally generated, and the Spirit eternally proceeds. So, all three are eternally One, but causally related.

Cappadocian Fathers - Wikipedia

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I read Timothy Ware (orthodox Theologian) on the trinity. He said the doctrine was not to explain Gods nature (man could never understand it) But rather it was to exclude certain ways to speak and think of it is all.

The words and terms are not an explanation, as we understand things. We have no words capable to explain it. I thought that was good to help me know not to look at the terms according to human understanding and application.

ralliann said:

I read Timothy Ware (orthodox Theologian) on the trinity. He said the doctrine was not to explain Gods nature (man could never understand it) But rather it was to exclude certain ways to speak and think of it is all.

The words and terms are not an explanation, as we understand things. We have no words capable to explain it. I thought that was good to help me know not to look at the terms according to human understanding and application.

Click to expand...

Bishop Kallistos Ware is correct here, for those unfamiliar this is called apophatic or "negative" theology; we are concerned with saying what God is not, rather than what God is.

Our Trinitarian language is, in large part, a response against certain theological views which the Church believes need to be rejected as false because such positions undermine the truth of God and of the Christian faith in serious and significant ways. In a sense, all of the early Church Councils met not to define God, but rather to reject false views about Jesus Christ. Rejecting these false views leaves us with things we can say, but which are said largely to guard against false doctrines rather than to have a systematically rational and coherent claim. Which is why our language becomes paradoxical at times, God is both One and Three, Jesus Christ is both God and Man. We place our emphasis on saying things like "without confusion or separation" to reject two extreme and wrong views. God is one God, and there are Three Divine Hypostases or "Persons", well what does that actually mean? In one sense we don't know what that means at all, in fact we can't; in another sense it simply means we confess and worship "one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Essence": that we insist and confess the one God, and yet, somehow, there are Three very real "Persons". There are Three Someones, there is real activity, real love shared between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and somehow each is Himself God even as together they are God--the one indivisible God. After all, "Hear O Israel, the LORD your God, the LORD is one."

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Bishop Kallistos Ware is correct here, for those unfamiliar this is called apophatic or "negative" theology; we are concerned with saying what God is not, rather than what God is.

Our Trinitarian language is, in large part, a response against certain theological views which the Church believes need to be rejected as false because such positions undermine the truth of God and of the Christian faith in serious and significant ways. In a sense, all of the early Church Councils met not to define God, but rather to reject false views about Jesus Christ. Rejecting these false views leaves us with things we can say, but which are said largely to guard against false doctrines rather than to have a systematically rational and coherent claim. Which is why our language becomes paradoxical at times, God is both One and Three, Jesus Christ is both God and Man. We place our emphasis on saying things like "without confusion or separation" to reject two extreme and wrong views. God is one God, and there are Three Divine Hypostases or "Persons", well what does that actually mean? In one sense we don't know what that means at all, in fact we can't; in another sense it simply means we confess and worship "one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Essence": that we insist and confess the one God, and yet, somehow, there are Three very real "Persons". There are Three Someones, there is real activity, real love shared between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and somehow each is Himself God even as together they are God--the one indivisible God. After all, "Hear O Israel, the LORD your God, the LORD is one."

-CryptoLutheran

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Thank you for this. This truth you presented above helped me a great deal, when reading Ware. Today many Christians attempt to use the doctrine in a manner the Church never intended, nor able to do.

_epoh_ said:

Hi,

I haven't written here in a little while. I'm learning about Christianity and I'm trying to understand the Trinity.

After reading some Biblical passages, watching debates and podcasts about the subject, I'm still unsure how to grasp the concept of the Trinity. I'd like to present my thoughts and ask for feedback and corrections to help me learn.

God the Father created the Son and the Holy Spirit.

God the Father created the universe and heavens, for the Son to oversee.

The Son volunteered tocome to earth in human form, with the agreement between He and the Father that He would deliver the message and His suffering and sacrifice would be the price to atone for the sins of humankind.

Humankind can then choose to accept and take that path, as through the Son, they reach the Father.

The Son csends divine revelations and messages to humankind through the Holy Spirit.

The Father is one God, the Son is not God and neither is the Holy Spirit. They are his creations to oversee the world and humankind.​

Please correct me where needed and please provide explanations and links if possible.

Thank you.

Click to expand...

If God was capable of inspiring authors over a very long period of time, why wouldn’t he do the same thing now and shed more light at some difficult subjects?

James_Lai said:

If God was capable of inspiring authors over a very long period of time, why wouldn’t he do the same thing now and shed more light at some difficult subjects?

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Some subjects, such as the nature of the Almighty, are beyond our ability to fully understand. What is revealed, therefore, is what we can comprehend and, in this case, appreciate how the true God is different from from all others that various peoples have believed in.

With the Trinity, we have but one God who, however, has always existed as three 'persona' (not separate beings or individuals and not just different moods or apparitions of the same God).