Help Me Connect the Dots

Iamblichus · Dec 13, 2011

@hedrick
I'll be honest the reason for the philosophical approach is that, its the only approach I really find compelling. I've actually gone through the reasoning and made a compelling case for myself for the existence of a Soul, and of the Creator. If I can deduce with reason, then I start to believe in something. Perhaps thats all it takes... maybe I just need a few days for this philosophical realization of the creator to sink in so I may being to start the ball rolling towards faith.

I don't think that is the case but I'm not about to deny it as a possibility.
Which I guess you're saying that possibility is highly unlikely that, that is the case, and the reason for this is my approach. Because it recognizes only the work of the creator, and his not self-disclosure.

I can accept that...though I think it just means I'm not likely to arrive at faith.

drich0150 · Dec 13, 2011

Iamblichus said:
I feel like there is a disconnect between what I'm saying and what I've come to accept. Logically I know there must be a creator, yet at the same time, a part of me rebels against the idea.

why? because you do not see the type of love and attention in this world that you would like or expect to see? Does it mean love does not exist in the world?
-or-
does it mean that you have not yet learned to identify the love God offers?

This was a point I was expecting to come up, and as I'm seeking knowledge my aim isn't some much to contest it but to wonder if it is good enough.

To which standard do you propose to judge God?

Namely based on what I know about the creator,

Is this a true standard?

I have to reason to assume that we are created in his image. Now lets assume I am however willing to assume we are created in the image of God. What necessitates that God stayed around to love us, and didn't just spawn us and abandon us.

This is a matter of personal philosophy. I can compile a list if you like but ultimately it comes down to how you view the life you have been given, and you involvement with God in that life.

Perhaps I'm asking for what cannot be easily proven. But what evidence is there for a loving God? If we don't look at scripture but just at the world?

"The world" in the Christian World view has turn it's back on God, so it would stand to reason that very little will reflect the Love of God. To see the love of God you must to Him, His word, and HIS people. not necessarily those who simply take His name.

I'm afraid not...care to enlighten me?

The whole of the Old Testament, every book, points toward the Great Sacrifice that was to comethat of Jesus sacrificial giving of His own life on our behalf. Leviticus 17:11 is the Old Testaments central statement about the significance of blood in the sacrificial system. God, speaking to Moses, declares: For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for ones life.

A sacrifice is defined as the offering up of something precious for a cause or a reason. Making atonement is satisfying someone or something for an offense committed. The Leviticus verse can be read more clearly now: God said I have given it to you (the creatures life, which is in its blood) to make atonement for yourselves (covering the offense you have committed against Me). In other words, those who are covered by the blood sacrifice are set free from the consequences of sin.

Of course the Israelites did not know of Jesus per se, or how He would die on their behalf and then rise again, but they did believe God would be sending them a Savior. All of the many, many blood sacrifices seen throughout the Old Testament were foreshadows of the true, once-for-all-time sacrifice to come so that the Israelites would never forget that without the blood, there is no sacrifice. This shedding of blood is a substitutionary act. Therefore the last clause of Leviticus 17:11 could be read either the blood makes atonement at the cost of the life (i.e. the animals life) or makes atonement in the place of the life, i.e. the sinners life, with Jesus Christ being the One giving life through His shed blood.

Hebrews 9: 11-18 confirms in the New Testament the symbolism of blood as life and applies Leviticus 17:11 to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Verse 12 states clearly that the Old Testament blood sacrifices were temporary and only atoned for sin partially and for a short time, hence the need to repeat the sacrifices yearly. But when Christ entered the holy place, He did so to offer His own blood once for all time, making future sacrifices unnecessary. This is what Jesus meant by His dying words on the cross: It is finished (John 19:30). Never again would the blood of bulls and goats cleanse men from their sin. Only by accepting Jesus blood, shed on the cross for the remission of sins, can we stand before God covered in the righteousness of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).
http://www.gotquestions.org/blood-sacrifice.html

Iamblichus · Dec 13, 2011

drich0150 said:
why? because you do not see the type of love and attention in this world that you would like or expect to see? Does it mean love does not exist in the world?
-or-
does it mean that you have not yet learned to identify the love God offers?

I don't mean in this cause judging God's love but more then I have trouble accepting a creator at all, for some reason, despite knowing it should be true.
Still I'd like to address this idea, because I think its quite helpful. You might be right, I might just be overlooking love as it appears in the world. I just ...don't know. Which is why I'd like some evidence.

drich0150 said:
To which standard do you propose to judge God?
Is this a true standard?

...I guess not. I'm not trying to judge him. It's just hard to think any other way you know.

drich0150 said:
This is a matter of personal philosophy. I can compile a list if you like but ultimately it comes down to how you view the life you have been given, and you involvement with God in that life.

"The world" in the Christian World view has turn it's back on God, so it would stand to reason that very little will reflect the Love of God. To see the love of God you must to Him, His word, and HIS people. not necessarily those who simply take His name.

So, I basically need to just have faith, and turn to him before I can hope to see anything. I'm not sure if that is something I can do... I see no reason why I should just accept him on faith or more then anyone else. Why not just accept another faith?

I know its a personal thing....I need it to be a personal philosophical thing. Its just sort of how I seem to work.

drich0150 said:
The whole of the Old Testament, every book, points toward the Great Sacrifice that was to comethat of Jesus sacrificial giving of His own life on our behalf. Leviticus 17:11 is the Old Testaments central statement about the significance of blood in the sacrificial system. God, speaking to Moses, declares: For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for ones life.

A sacrifice is defined as the offering up of something precious for a cause or a reason. Making atonement is satisfying someone or something for an offense committed. The Leviticus verse can be read more clearly now: God said I have given it to you (the creatures life, which is in its blood) to make atonement for yourselves (covering the offense you have committed against Me). In other words, those who are covered by the blood sacrifice are set free from the consequences of sin.

Of course the Israelites did not know of Jesus per se, or how He would die on their behalf and then rise again, but they did believe God would be sending them a Savior. All of the many, many blood sacrifices seen throughout the Old Testament were foreshadows of the true, once-for-all-time sacrifice to come so that the Israelites would never forget that without the blood, there is no sacrifice. This shedding of blood is a substitutionary act. Therefore the last clause of Leviticus 17:11 could be read either the blood makes atonement at the cost of the life (i.e. the animals life) or makes atonement in the place of the life, i.e. the sinners life, with Jesus Christ being the One giving life through His shed blood.

Hebrews 9: 11-18 confirms in the New Testament the symbolism of blood as life and applies Leviticus 17:11 to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Verse 12 states clearly that the Old Testament blood sacrifices were temporary and only atoned for sin partially and for a short time, hence the need to repeat the sacrifices yearly. But when Christ entered the holy place, He did so to offer His own blood once for all time, making future sacrifices unnecessary. This is what Jesus meant by His dying words on the cross: It is finished (John 19:30). Never again would the blood of bulls and goats cleanse men from their sin. Only by accepting Jesus blood, shed on the cross for the remission of sins, can we stand before God covered in the righteousness of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).
http://www.gotquestions.org/blood-sacrifice.html

Hmm... interesting, thank you. I can sort of of understand how you mean sacrifice can purge something then. Thanks. =)

Iamblichus · Dec 13, 2011

P.S. General message to all of you. I hope you don't think I'm purposely just being difficult or that I'm ungrateful.

I greatly, appreciate what you've said, and the aid you're offering, in helping me learn. I'm not trying to make things difficult for you I'm just trying to understand and unify it with how I can understand the world.

So thank you all. =)

Daniel25 · Dec 13, 2011

If you assume no revelation, you are going to do a lot of hand waving and end up at deism; which is not suitable as a locus for moral action. So you end up with the same old nihilism-hedonism paradigm.

Once you accept revelation, the interesting question is authority.

oi_antz · Dec 14, 2011

Iamblichus said:
Alright, so Christ, if one accepts him, as our conscience who leads us back to the state intended by God. That seems reasonable... and answers my question about his role.

Seeking the truth is necessarily wearying, because to any question there are a multitude of answers. However seeking the truth is ultimately the only thing which is gratifying, as constantly learning is the only way we may grow, to do that one needs to keep an open mind.

I'm basically willing to learn from anyone and everyone, as well as everything in the world. I think that everything holds some reflection of the truth of the universe and thus offers us some lesson.

So I guess the only really query left, is what necessitates the unmoved mover, be this loving being? Why should I think he is anything but indifferent to us? Or essentially, this creator being I've concluded must exist, why is he necessarily the God of Abraham?

Hi, I can see you have a lot more queries now than you had when you wrote this response! Be careful there, you are walking a minefield. This is not to say that anyone here has given you bad information, but that there is quite literally a war going on over your soul. Fought on one side by Jesus' people, and on the other side, an opponent you have probably not realized, what you would recognize as doubt. So just try to be aware of that, I've seen plenty of people come around here, ask a few questions, not be able to bend their knee to Jesus and end up a lot worse off than they started. Remaining humble and recipient to God's message is the key to growing healthy on the vine of Christ.

As for your question why is God a loving being? Because love is a good thing, and there is one thing we know about God the creator as revealed to us in Christ, that He is a king of righteousness. That means He is absolutely good. So love is an attribute of a good person. However there are passages in the bible which demonstrate that God can demonstrate wrath, and there is no question about these passages that wrath does not equal love, it equals hate. In fact it is stated in Psalm 5:5 "The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity." So God is known to hate the unrighteous types, and there are plenty of them in this world.

You have also asked why you should have faith in the Christian God, and this is a very good question. The fact is that Jesus has invested faith in all of Gods people, so if you are one of Gods people then you will discover soon enough that you love righteousness and you would love to have Jesus as your king, as the King of all kings and Lord of all lords. So you need to invest some effort into evaluating what Jesus expects of you and then decide whether He is the person you want to trust, or whether you want to take your chances by following someone else. This isn't to say that you close your mind to what other's say, banish the thought. But all of Jesus' people are entitled to learn directly from God. Consider the following verse:

John 14 said:
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. 20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.
22 Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?

23 Jesus replied, All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. 24 Anyone who doesnt love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me. 25 I am telling you these things now while I am still with you. 26 But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representativethat is, the Holy Spirithe will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.

Notice in this quote that Jesus is telling His followers what the Holy Spirit had told Him: that He will be raised from the dead, and He will come to make His home with anyone who obeys Him.

So it seems to me that your next efforts should be spent investigating what Jesus would expect of you in terms of "obedience", that way you will be well informed whether you are the type of person who would love Him to rule over you. If you answer yes to that question then you would want to ask Him to send the Holy Spirit to you so you can learn the secrets of Christianity directly from God.

I must say your attitude and character leans itself toward Christianity, you are asking good questions with honest intent, I sincerely hope you will find your rest with Jesus. I'd like to pray with you, because I know how treacherous the road is at your stage, I hope you can agree with what I say:

Dear Lord of all lords, King of all kings and God of all gods. We approach you confidently in the name of Jesus the Christ knowing that you have revealed yourself to love those who value righteousness. We ask you to guide us in ways of righteousness, we ask for your guidance to be crystal clear and we ask for your mercy on us, to heal our heart and clean our ears that we will be attentive to your guidance at all times. We pray for Iamblichus, who is struggling with disbelief, we ask that you will guide him into the truth and hone his heart to identify the truth and distinguish it from the world full of lies that are born of rebellion. We thank you that you have kept him safe this far, we praise you for the lengths you have gone to that we may be redeemed from the destruction that ensues a life of debauchery. We ask that you will clean our hearts of all desires to commit atrocities, that our minds will be purified by your Holy Spirit, and we ask that you would show mercy on our brother Iamblichus, to find him acceptable for your grace and the greatest gift of all which is faith in the one true savior. We pray this to you almighty God in the name of your dearest son, Jesus Christ.

Thanks Iamblichus, stay safe, try not to get knocked around too much by misinformation, there's already a world full of it and there seems to get more by the day

bling · Dec 14, 2011

Iamblichus said:
As a biology student I can say my knowledge of science helped me conclude there has to be something more. But that's just me.

I am a chemist and come to the same conclusion.

Seems to be, one of those arguments that comes up time and time again. Does suggest a sort of hands off approach. (Which doesn't necessarily I realize denote a lack of care.)

Good observation. I have addressed this many times but have not developed a short answer, so lets come back to this and for now just realize I feel God has extreme care for everyone and has shown it, but will need explaining.

I can see where this line of thinking leads...I agree, the creator must have a reason for the creation of things. However I'm not sure that speaks to him being the ultimate lover. It could equally be so he can revel in the glory he has wrought.

My prime problem with this line of thought is that is leads to the supremacy of man. Which I'm not sure of, I think that our reason indicates a closeness to the divine, though not necessarily a superiority to anything else, after all everything was created with a purpose, which makes everything equally important in the Creators eyes.

So either our creator created it out of Selfless love, For a purpose, or for his own Glory.

Stephen Hawking once said, Man has purpose if it is nothing more than to witness this amassing universe.

I agree everything has a purpose, even a rock has a purpose by being a rock, and everything in that sense brings glory to the Creator. The difference I see with man is; man has an objective (something to be achieved while here on earth and nothing else we know of has an objective).

If the creator is looking for recognition (praise/glory) from man of what He has done, then He could do a lot more to obtain that recognition (most beings including humans, do not seem to care).

So back to Love:

We can relate somewhat to the strength of a wonderful mothers love for her innocent child, so if Gods Love is much greater it would be the controlling motivation in all His actions.

This Love of the creator would thus compel Him to make beings that could also Love like He loves, but it would not be for the Creators sake but for the sake of those that did obtain this Love like He has. In other words God is creating being very much like Himself (that is really a huge gift (the greatest gift God could give) and noble task above all other noble tasks). The gift of this Love is the gift of the most powerful force in all universes, since it compels even the Creator to do all He does.

If obtaining this Godly type Love is mans objective than God would arrange everything possible in the universe to help humans fulfill their objective and thus become like He is. We should thus see this arrangement of God throughout history and all around us. So if that is what we can possibly see, would that not suggest that is our objective and the Creators objective?

Iamblichus · Dec 14, 2011

You've written a lot and I feel bad being unable to give you what I feel is an adequate response. Instead all I can really do is offer you thanks for what you've said.

oi_antz said:
Hi, I can see you have a lot more queries now than you had when you wrote this response! Be careful there, you are walking a minefield. This is not to say that anyone here has given you bad information, but that there is quite literally a war going on over your soul. Fought on one side by Jesus' people, and on the other side, an opponent you have probably not realized, what you would recognize as doubt. So just try to be aware of that, I've seen plenty of people come around here, ask a few questions, not be able to bend their knee to Jesus and end up a lot worse off than they started. Remaining humble and recipient to God's message is the key to growing healthy on the vine of Christ.

I will make an effort to remain humble and open to knowledge. To open my heart to new ideas and concepts and try accept what I'm learning. It is hard however not to evaluate and doubt everything. Which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing, however when it keeps one from being able to accept knowledge it is.

oi_antz said:
As for your question why is God a loving being? Because love is a good thing, and there is one thing we know about God the creator as revealed to us in Christ, that He is a king of righteousness. That means He is absolutely good. So love is an attribute of a good person. However there are passages in the bible which demonstrate that God can demonstrate wrath, and there is no question about these passages that wrath does not equal love, it equals hate. In fact it is stated in Psalm 5:5 "The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity." So God is known to hate the unrighteous types, and there are plenty of them in this world.

I think I understand what you're saying here. We see Gods wrath because the unrighteous are so plentiful, but Gods love is also present in the world. That makes sense.

oi_antz said:
You have also asked why you should have faith in the Christian God, and this is a very good question. The fact is that Jesus has invested faith in all of Gods people, so if you are one of Gods people then you will discover soon enough that you love righteousness and you would love to have Jesus as your king, as the King of all kings and Lord of all lords. So you need to invest some effort into evaluating what Jesus expects of you and then decide whether He is the person you want to trust, or whether you want to take your chances by following someone else. This isn't to say that you close your mind to what other's say, banish the thought. But all of Jesus' people are entitled to learn directly from God. Consider the following verse:

Notice in this quote that Jesus is telling His followers what the Holy Spirit had told Him: that He will be raised from the dead, and He will come to make His home with anyone who obeys Him.

So it seems to me that your next efforts should be spent investigating what Jesus would expect of you in terms of "obedience", that way you will be well informed whether you are the type of person who would love Him to rule over you. If you answer yes to that question then you would want to ask Him to send the Holy Spirit to you so you can learn the secrets of Christianity directly from God.

So I aught pick up and read, so I can discover for myself what is being said, and if I would want Christ as my king. Not dissimilar to Augustine that. Probably good advice. Once I'm done my exams, I'll put some time aside to read some passages of scripture.

oi_antz said:
I must say your attitude and character leans itself toward Christianity, you are asking good questions with honest intent, I sincerely hope you will find your rest with Jesus. I'd like to pray with you, because I know how treacherous the road is at your stage, I hope you can agree with what I say:

Dear Lord of all lords, King of all kings and God of all gods. We approach you confidently in the name of Jesus the Christ knowing that you have revealed yourself to love those who value righteousness. We ask you to guide us in ways of righteousness, we ask for your guidance to be crystal clear and we ask for your mercy on us, to heal our heart and clean our ears that we will be attentive to your guidance at all times. We pray for Iamblichus, who is struggling with disbelief, we ask that you will guide him into the truth and hone his heart to identify the truth and distinguish it from the world full of lies that are born of rebellion. We thank you that you have kept him safe this far, we praise you for the lengths you have gone to that we may be redeemed from the destruction that ensues a life of debauchery. We ask that you will clean our hearts of all desires to commit atrocities, that our minds will be purified by your Holy Spirit, and we ask that you would show mercy on our brother Iamblichus, to find him acceptable for your grace and the greatest gift of all which is faith in the one true savior. We pray this to you almighty God in the name of your dearest son, Jesus Christ.

Thanks Iamblichus, stay safe, try not to get knocked around too much by misinformation, there's already a world full of it and there seems to get more by the day

Thanks you very much, I appreciate the sentiment. I hope I mange to find a path for myself out of confusion and into a state of, at least mild understanding.

Many thanks to you, may life treat you kindly.

Iamblichus · Dec 14, 2011

@daniel.. probably true. Doesn't mean it isn't a challenging thing to accept though.

bling said:
I agree everything has a purpose, even a rock has a purpose by being a rock, and everything in that sense brings glory to the Creator. The difference I see with man is; man has an objective (something to be achieved while here on earth and nothing else we know of has an objective).

If the creator is looking for recognition (praise/glory) from man of what He has done, then He could do a lot more to obtain that recognition (most beings including humans, do not seem to care).

So back to Love:

We can relate somewhat to the strength of a wonderful mothers love for her innocent child, so if Gods Love is much greater it would be the controlling motivation in all His actions.

This Love of the creator would thus compel Him to make beings that could also Love like He loves, but it would not be for the Creators sake but for the sake of those that did obtain this Love like He has. In other words God is creating being very much like Himself (that is really a huge gift (the greatest gift God could give) and noble task above all other noble tasks). The gift of this Love is the gift of the most powerful force in all universes, since it compels even the Creator to do all He does.

If obtaining this Godly type Love is mans objective than God would arrange everything possible in the universe to help humans fulfill their objective and thus become like He is. We should thus see this arrangement of God throughout history and all around us. So if that is what we can possibly see, would that not suggest that is our objective and the Creators objective?

This definitely makes a lot of sense.
God loves his creation because he fathered it.
Man having an objective, which as you say, it wouldn't make that much sense for it to be the further the Lords Glory, or else he would have done a terrible job creating us.

I'm having a little trouble with your description of the end goal of man. Not because I feel that it doesn't make sense. The idea of the end goal being feeling love like Gods love, and sharing in his joy makes sense. But the idea that all of creation has been guiding us towards this state.

...if it is then God might have goofed. The world doesn't really seem to lead everyone to him. Which doesn't make a lot of sense. Which is why I wonder if humanity might have a different end then what you've suggested.

Or perhaps I'm missing something. Care to enlighten me further?

Walter Kovacs · Dec 14, 2011

All I've been able to think of so far is the Christ is the intermediary between the unmoved divine mind and mankind, and by connecting with Christ we reconnect with the divine mind, and our original purpose. (I have a number of problems with this idea, but it seems like it might be approaching something accurate)

I would say you're close. This post is more of a conversation-starter, though than a definitive answer. Hopefully ideas will develop.

I'm somewhat Bonhoefferian in my theology -
Bonhoeffer, Dietrich [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy] - in that I believe that Christ is ultimately at the center of reality. Our purpose is to be human - and this can only happen in Christ. Union with Christ results in our humanity -and through Christs death and Resurrection reconciliation with God, allowing us to become partakers of the divine nature.

drich0150 · Dec 14, 2011

Iamblichus said:
I Still I'd like to address this idea, because I think its quite helpful. You might be right, I might just be overlooking love as it appears in the world. I just ...don't know. Which is why I'd like some evidence.

Then perhaps you should look for the evidence God offers.

So, I basically need to just have faith, and turn to him before I can hope to see anything.

"Faith of a mustard seed." If you can find the tiniest amount of faith and apply it to God as He has instructed then you will be given more, and if you roll that faith over you will be given more, till you have the "evidence" you need.

I'm not sure if that is something I can do... I see no reason why I should just accept him on faith or more then anyone else. Why not just accept another faith?

Indeed. that is why we been given a life time to explore.

I know its a personal thing....I need it to be a personal philosophical thing. Its just sort of how I seem to work.

So God should petition you for your faith?? If you wanted to meet the President of the United States should he be the one to seek you out?

Iamblichus · Dec 15, 2011

Walter Kovacs said:
I would say you're close. This post is more of a conversation-starter, though than a definitive answer. Hopefully ideas will develop.

I'm somewhat Bonhoefferian in my theology -
Bonhoeffer, Dietrich[bless and do not curse][Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy] - in that I believe that Christ is ultimately at the center of reality. Our purpose is to be human - and this can only happen in Christ. Union with Christ results in our humanity -and through Christs death and Resurrection reconciliation with God, allowing us to become partakers of the divine nature.

Well for most things there will be more then one answer, so no real definitive answer anyways.

That's a very interesting philosophy. I'm afraid I really don't have a lot to say though. How is it you believe that one achieves this union with Christ?

Iamblichus · Dec 15, 2011

drich0150 said:
Then perhaps you should look for the evidence God offers.

"Faith of a mustard seed." If you can find the tiniest amount of faith and apply it to God as He has instructed then you will be given more, and if you roll that faith over you will be given more, till you have the "evidence" you need.

Indeed. that is why we been given a life time to explore.

So God should petition you for your faith?? If you wanted to meet the President of the United States should he be the one to seek you out?

That's the problem...I'm apparently not seeing the evidence offered by God. Which is why I'm asking to help having it point out to me.

I see...its an awfully hard thing to place faith in something. I'll make an effort though.

True enough, which is exactly how one aught to live your life, in exploration.

Which is why I'm attempting to seek him out. Using the only tool I can understand. Philosophy.

Walter Kovacs · Dec 15, 2011

That's a very interesting philosophy. I'm afraid I really don't have a lot to say though. How is it you believe that one achieves this union with Christ?

The easy answer is faith - but faith does **not** mean believing in something you can't see, or believing against the evidence, or anything like that.

Faith in the biblical sense is substantive, based on the knowledge that the One in whom that faith is placed has proven that He is worthy of that trust. In its essence, faith is a confidence in the person of Jesus Christ and in His power, so that even when His power does not serve my end, my confidence in Him remains because of who He is.
- Ravi Zacharias

Faith is simply trust by experience. God doesn't expect you (at least from what I can tell in Scripture) to just take a Kierkegaard-ian leap of faith. Look at Scripture - God always gives evidence. The Hebrew people didn't just one day say 'Well guys, the proposition 'YHWH exists, is a dandy one in which will we believe.' It was because God rescued them Himself that they knew they could trust Him.

So here's what I would say. Instead of trying to come to the conclusion that the proposition 'God,' or 'Jesus,' or whatever is true (which isn't unimportant however), pursue God in a personal way.

"Biblically God hides Himself to all except to those who by His grace seek him with their whole heart, mind, soul, and strength sincerely and in truth. Not just the mind!!! If we seek Him fully He has promised to meet us on the road. There is no burden of proof, but a burden of seeking, not just with the mind, but with the whole being, a burden which cannot find fulfillment without grace. Grace not just to know, but to follow. Not just to enrich one's life, but to lose it."

"To obtain anything from God, the outward must be joined to the inward; that is to say we must kneel and pray alone, etc. so that proud man, who would not submit to God, may now be subject to the body. To expect any help from this outward act is superstition; a refusal to join it to our inward acts is pride. For we must not misunderstand ourselves; we are as much machines as mind. And hence the means by which a man is persuaded are not demonstration alone. How few things are demonstrated! Proofs convince only the mind. It is habit that produces our strongest and most accepted proofs; it guides the machine, which carries the mind with it unconcsiously. Who has proved that there will be a morrow and that we will die?" -Blaise Pascal

"Let them at least learn the nature of the religion they are attacking, before they attack it. If this religion boasted of having a clear vision of God, and of possessing Him plain and unveiled, then to say that nothing we see in the world reveals Him with this degree of clarity would indeed be to attack it. But it says, on the contrary, that man is in darkness and far from God, that He has hidden Himself from man's knowledge, and that the name He has given Himself in the Scriptures is in fact The Hidden God (Is 45:15). Therefore if it seeks to establish these two facts: that God has in the church erected visible signs by which those who sincerely seek Him may recognize Him, and that he has nevertheless so concealed them that He will only be perceived by those who seek Him with all their hearts, what advantage can the attackers gain when, while admitting that they neglect to seek for the truth, they yet cry that nothing reveals it? For the very darkness in which they lie, and for which they blame the Church, establishes one of her two claims, without invalidating the other, and also, far from destroying her doctrine, confirms it" (Blaise Pascal, Pensees, 335).

bling · Dec 15, 2011

Iamblichus said:
@daniel.. probably true. Doesn't mean it isn't a challenging thing to accept though.

This definitely makes a lot of sense.
God loves his creation because he fathered it.
Man having an objective, which as you say, it wouldn't make that much sense for it to be the further the Lords Glory, or else he would have done a terrible job creating us.

I'm having a little trouble with your description of the end goal of man. Not because I feel that it doesn't make sense. The idea of the end goal being feeling love like Gods love, and sharing in his joy makes sense. But the idea that all of creation has been guiding us towards this state.

...if it is then God might have goofed. The world doesn't really seem to lead everyone to him. Which doesn't make a lot of sense. Which is why I wonder if humanity might have a different end then what you've suggested.

Or perhaps I'm missing something. Care to enlighten me further?

Thank you for following along, we seem to be communicating well and you are asking the right questions.

The problem is there is no quick answer. If I were to try and address one specific instance you wondered about; How is God working this to help man that would still take lots of words, but less words than trying to explain every situation.

I will address this generally and then you can ask specific questions.

Generally:

First off; if there is this Creator of the universe out there, His creations could not really do anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to get something from His creation.

What keeps the all powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?

There are something even an all powerful Creator cannot do and the one thing He cannot do that would apply to humans is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it His Love. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the humans creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God forces this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be loving on Gods part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice that has real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This means God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot make them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision.

This Love is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). Few people that call themselves Christians seem to even have this type love or do a good job of hiding it. If you see this Love you see God and you can have this Love in you working through you to feel, know, experience, see and have it grow in you. Church might not be the best place to find this Love, but where there are huge tragedies there hopefully you can find God Loving others through these Christians.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief. Lots of alternatives can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus he that is forgiven much will Love much). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so it can have a huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in a huge Godly type Love.

You really need to read the Gospels because this Love is defined by all Christ did and said.

This is just an introduction.

drich0150 · Dec 15, 2011

Iamblichus said:
That's the problem...I'm apparently not seeing the evidence offered by God. Which is why I'm asking to help having it point out to me.

We can point till He returns, but if you can not see then what we "show you will mean nothing."

If you wish to see then will all you have ask God to open your eyes.

I see...its an awfully hard thing to place faith in something. I'll make an effort though.

What is your understanding of "Faith?"

Which is why I'm attempting to seek him out. Using the only tool I can understand. Philosophy.

If the rings of Saturn can not be seen with a microscope why use one to look for them? God is not a philosophical exercise. If He were then He would be a creation of Man, thus negating your efforts. One can use philosophy to explain certain aspects of God and creation, but by the very nature of the infinite God we serve, our philosophies are no where big enough to encapsulate the nature of God.

So why not put down your tool and use the ones He has asked us to use? Pride is typically the only thing standing between you and the tools He has given you.

oi_antz · Dec 16, 2011

drich0150 said:
We can point till He returns, but if you can not see then what we "show you will mean nothing."

If you wish to see then will all you have ask God to open your eyes.

What is your understanding of "Faith?"

If the rings of Saturn can not be seen with a microscope why use one to look for them? God is not a philosophical exercise. If He were then He would be a creation of Man, thus negating your efforts. One can use philosophy to explain certain aspects of God and creation, but by the very nature of the infinite God we serve, our philosophies are no where big enough to encapsulate the nature of God.

So why not put down your tool and use the ones He has asked us to use? Pride is typically the only thing standing between you and the tools He has given you.

That's some pretty strong language. Just be aware of that war I told you about, and check out these verses that Jesus told me to read when I prayed to Him about you:

Romans 9 (The Living Bible) said:
This proves that God was doing what he had decided from the beginning; it was not because of what the children did but because of what God wanted and chose. Was God being unfair? Of course not. For God had said to Moses, "If I want to be kind to someone, I will. And I will take pity on anyone I want to."

I prayed again and He told me to read this verse:

Judges 13 said:
Once again Israel sinned by worshiping other gods, so the Lord let them be conquered by the Philistines, who kept them in subjection for forty years.

I think God is giving you a strong message, you should consider yourself blessed that He hasn't outright hardened your heart. Instead He seems to be giving you an ultimatum. That's how I would read it, but you might have a different opinion. I think Judges 13 should show you why drich mentioned pride might be a problem for you. You have to investigate whether you really want to know God or not, and then investigate what it is worth to you. My advice: give it all your strength to submit to Him and you will be eternally grateful. I say this with love, I hope you remain on the right path

Iamblichus · Dec 16, 2011

Walter Kovacs said:
The easy answer is faith - but faith does **not** mean believing in something you can't see, or believing against the evidence, or anything like that.

Faith in the biblical sense is substantive, based on the knowledge that the One in whom that faith is placed has proven that He is worthy of that trust. In its essence, faith is a confidence in the person of Jesus Christ and in His power, so that even when His power does not serve my end, my confidence in Him remains because of who He is.
- Ravi Zacharias

Faith is simply trust by experience. God doesn't expect you (at least from what I can tell in Scripture) to just take a Kierkegaard-ian leap of faith. Look at Scripture - God always gives evidence. The Hebrew people didn't just one day say 'Well guys, the proposition 'YHWH exists, is a dandy one in which will we believe.' It was because God rescued them Himself that they knew they could trust Him.

So here's what I would say. Instead of trying to come to the conclusion that the proposition 'God,' or 'Jesus,' or whatever is true (which isn't unimportant however), pursue God in a personal way.

"Biblically God hides Himself to all except to those who by His grace seek him with their whole heart, mind, soul, and strength sincerely and in truth. Not just the mind!!! If we seek Him fully He has promised to meet us on the road. There is no burden of proof, but a burden of seeking, not just with the mind, but with the whole being, a burden which cannot find fulfillment without grace. Grace not just to know, but to follow. Not just to enrich one's life, but to lose it."

"To obtain anything from God, the outward must be joined to the inward; that is to say we must kneel and pray alone, etc. so that proud man, who would not submit to God, may now be subject to the body. To expect any help from this outward act is superstition; a refusal to join it to our inward acts is pride. For we must not misunderstand ourselves; we are as much machines as mind. And hence the means by which a man is persuaded are not demonstration alone. How few things are demonstrated! Proofs convince only the mind. It is habit that produces our strongest and most accepted proofs; it guides the machine, which carries the mind with it unconcsiously. Who has proved that there will be a morrow and that we will die?" -Blaise Pascal

"Let them at least learn the nature of the religion they are attacking, before they attack it. If this religion boasted of having a clear vision of God, and of possessing Him plain and unveiled, then to say that nothing we see in the world reveals Him with this degree of clarity would indeed be to attack it. But it says, on the contrary, that man is in darkness and far from God, that He has hidden Himself from man's knowledge, and that the name He has given Himself in the Scriptures is in fact The Hidden God (Is 45:15). Therefore if it seeks to establish these two facts: that God has in the church erected visible signs by which those who sincerely seek Him may recognize Him, and that he has nevertheless so concealed them that He will only be perceived by those who seek Him with all their hearts, what advantage can the attackers gain when, while admitting that they neglect to seek for the truth, they yet cry that nothing reveals it? For the very darkness in which they lie, and for which they blame the Church, establishes one of her two claims, without invalidating the other, and also, far from destroying her doctrine, confirms it" (Blaise Pascal, Pensees, 335).

Thats a very convincing way of putting it. I'll be honest I'm slightly overloaded by the sheer amount of material I have to reply to, both from you and others. I don't really know what to say to it.

I think you're definition of faith is for one a good definition. Not perhaps what mine was, but a far more apt definition then my own.

As for pursing God in a personal way...I can understand why thats important. That's pretty much what I think all of you are talking about. However I don't know how to move myself, beyond my mind. Which was the point of persuading the mind, so that the heart may follow afterwards.

The other problem as everyone seems to have been pointing out is pride, probably true. I've never really been the sort to bow to authority.

Iamblichus · Dec 16, 2011

bling said:
Thank you for following along, we seem to be communicating well and you are asking the right questions.

The problem is there is no quick answer. If I were to try and address one specific instance you wondered about; How is God working this to help man that would still take lots of words, but less words than trying to explain every situation.

I will address this generally and then you can ask specific questions.

Generally:

First off; if there is this Creator of the universe out there, His creations could not really do anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to get something from His creation.

What keeps the all powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?

There are something even an all powerful Creator cannot do and the one thing He cannot do that would apply to humans is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it His Love. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the humans creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God forces this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be loving on Gods part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice that has real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

This means God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot make them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision.

This Love is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). Few people that call themselves Christians seem to even have this type love or do a good job of hiding it. If you see this Love you see God and you can have this Love in you working through you to feel, know, experience, see and have it grow in you. Church might not be the best place to find this Love, but where there are huge tragedies there hopefully you can find God Loving others through these Christians.

Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief. Lots of alternatives can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus he that is forgiven much will Love much). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so it can have a huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in a huge Godly type Love.

You really need to read the Gospels because this Love is defined by all Christ did and said.

This is just an introduction.

Yes, as yourself and others have said. I really need to sit down and read some scripture. I just finished my last exam today. So I'm actually going to have some time now, I'm going to take advantage of that and try and read through some scripture.

I have however heard this description of love requiring free will before, however I hadn't heard it in the context of the creation. Its a compelling case for the purpose of man.. thank you.

Anyway, I don't think I really have any more questions. I clearly just need to read, and look at the world for evidence of love.

That is unless there is something you think I'm missing, in my understanding.

Iamblichus · Dec 16, 2011

drich0150 said:
We can point till He returns, but if you can not see then what we "show you will mean nothing."

If you wish to see then will all you have ask God to open your eyes.

What is your understanding of "Faith?"

If the rings of Saturn can not be seen with a microscope why use one to look for them? God is not a philosophical exercise. If He were then He would be a creation of Man, thus negating your efforts. One can use philosophy to explain certain aspects of God and creation, but by the very nature of the infinite God we serve, our philosophies are no where big enough to encapsulate the nature of God.

So why not put down your tool and use the ones He has asked us to use? Pride is typically the only thing standing between you and the tools He has given you.

Alright. So pride is the main problem here. I guess as I explained in my reply to Walter. The prime reason for using philosophy is that the mind is the one part of me that I seem to be able to move. So in trying to move my heart and soul, I'm trying to move my mind first so they will start moving.

I think I'm actually going to say the definition of faith is how Walter defined it. Trust by experience. I think that is a definition of merit.

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