hello <wave> are you Secular Humanist Atheist?

Booko · Feb 1, 2012

ProScribe said:
You've just proved that you think you're right.

I think he correctly observed that you yourself demonstrated there are some inherent contradictions between humanism and communism, which even if you could equate "philosophy" with "political ideology" would indicate that secular humanism and communism do not have a particularly close relationship to each other.

Communism might be a subset of "secular" but it isn't a subset of "humanist."

Therein lies the problem with your position thus far.

Jane_the_Bane · Feb 1, 2012

Booko said:
Communism is a form of gov't/national organization.

Well, ACTUALLY, communism is kind of a misnomer for the political systems that existed in the Eastern bloc - for the term as such describes the utopian society that's supposed to exist at the end of the class struggle: a non-stratified society of equals living in mutual support and prosperity, kinda akin to the Starfleet in Star Trek.
The Leninist take on Marxism basically held that this ideal could be achieved by an autocratic government clamping down on those who'd try to seek inordinate amounts of power for themselves - never quite realizing that they'd find the very monsters they set out to hunt within their own administration.

But even the most ideologically orthodox/idealistic Communist didn't believe that what existed in those countries already qualified as communism.

Booko · Feb 1, 2012

SithDoughnut said:
Of course you can have secular humanists who subscribe to a communist viewpoint, but there are Christian communists too. Overlap does not necessarily make two things comparable.

Exactly!

Thanks, SithDoughnut you said it much better than I could.

I was tempted earlier to remark that if I was a strong advocate of environmentalism, it would not make the Baha'i Faith and environmentalism comparable just because I'm a Baha'i.

Booko · Feb 1, 2012

Jane_the_Bane said:
Well, ACTUALLY, communism is kind of a misnomer for the political systems that existed in the Eastern bloc

I know, I was trying not to muddy the waters by pointing out that communism (at least anything like Marx envisioned) hasn't been seen in nations yet.

The USSR was a totalitarian gov't with a 2 tiered society. And so was Tsarist Russia. It's a Meet The New Boss Same As The Old Boss sorta thing.

The Leninist take on Marxism basically held that this ideal could be achieved by an autocratic government clamping down on those who'd try to seek inordinate amounts of power for themselves - never quite realizing that they'd find the very monsters they set out to hunt within their own administration.

The idea that there would be power and no one would manage to grab it (as happened) struck me as naive, and I'm hardly surprised the monsters showed up to the party. It's what happens if you omit the practical side of things and put in something to prevent the powergrabs?

But even the most ideologically orthodox/idealistic Communist didn't believe that what existed in those countries already qualified as communism.

No, but they had to talk a good game often, like it actually did qualify, because you don't want the masses to realize they've been had.

And people get sloppy with terms all the time, using communism when totalitarian or autocratic would fit better.

Heck, we call ourselves a democracy when we also have a 2-tiered system that might better be termed an oligarchy. We still have some hints of democracy from time to time -- just enough to fool the masses...for a while at least.

KCfromNC · Feb 1, 2012

ProScribe said:
Again; its about worldview and ideology that presupposes the rejection of God

Which worldviews presuppose the rejection of God? Certainly not atheism, since that's neither a world-view nor must atheists reject god a priori. And even though secular humanism is a world view, I don't think it requires its followers to presuppose that god doesn't exist - it's entirely acceptable to have that be a conclusion rather than an assumption.

So what is it you are talking about again, and does it exist anywhere but in your imagination?

ProScribe · Feb 1, 2012

SithDoughnut said:
By this logic, Christianity is linked to the holocaust because Christian churches have historically been anti-semetic (and some still are). So, what's it like being linked to mass murder of Jews?

WWI and WII historical facts and memorabilia have been collected and observed (In Memoriam)

You're making up links that do not exist. The whole "communism - atheism" link has been demonstrated to be nonsense time and time again, but people insist on bringing it up as if it's a valid argument. One vaguely common point does not make any sort of "link" that is worth bringing up. If I like the same ice-cream as a murderer, does that link me to the murder?

Your political worldview and ideology links you to your leader. If your leader suits your political views and ideology you vote for and support that leader who furthers your agenda toward a non-religious atheist government.

Delphiki · Feb 1, 2012

ProScribe said:
Your political worldview and ideology links you to your leader. If your leader suits your political views and ideology you vote for and support that leader who furthers your agenda toward a non-religious atheist government.

And who is my "leader"? The Christian president that I voted for?

ProScribe · Feb 1, 2012

Delphiki said:
And who is my "leader"? The Christian president that I voted for?

Didn't say.

If you go to Bing search engine and click on your locale it will show all those countries.

SithDoughnut · Feb 1, 2012

ProScribe said:
WWI and WII historical facts and memorabilia have been collected and observed (In Memoriam)

So we're agreed that Christianity and the holocaust are intrinsically linked then?

Your political worldview and ideology links you to your leader. If your leader suits your political views and ideology you vote for and support that leader who furthers your agenda toward a non-religious atheist government.

I've never voted for or had a communist or secular humanist leader. The last PM I voted for was a Christian. None of this has anything to do with what I said. Atheism - Communism links are nonsensical, but you appeared to have completely ignored that.

Secular humanism is not communism, nor is it linked to communism in any meaningful way.

ProScribe · Feb 1, 2012

KCfromNC said:
Which worldviews presuppose the rejection of God? Certainly not atheism, since that's neither a world-view nor must atheists reject god a priori. And even though secular humanism is a world view, I don't think it requires its followers to presuppose that god doesn't exist - it's entirely acceptable to have that be a conclusion rather than an assumption.

That's fine.

You can't force people to believe what you believe or force to convert by the sword as they did in primitive and medieval times.

So what is it you are talking about again, and does it exist anywhere but in your imagination?

Like the "Spaghetti Monster" ? Say a parent asks a 4th or 5th grader to draw the infinite God - If you read Early Christian Doctrines by J.N.D. Kelly; in ch. 4 it is somewhat Apollinarism related to what is called the "Demiurge" is is a very flawed & poor presentation of Christ the Savior depicted in His humanity.

Eudaimonist · Feb 2, 2012

ProScribe said:
Your political worldview and ideology links you to your leader. If your leader suits your political views and ideology you vote for and support that leader who furthers your agenda toward a non-religious atheist government.

I'm an atheist. I have voted for politicians without knowing their religious beliefs, and sometimes knowing full well that they are Christians.

For instance, I'd be willing to vote for this guy, who is a Christian, and even a Creationist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34iH...xt=C346c808UDOEgsToPDskKFGy5ZfmCn0HMNcHRdvaiM

The only time I would vote against a politician for reasons regarding religious beliefs is if that politician had expressed theocratic ideas. I would never vote for Pat Robertson, for instance.

Also, I would oppose any politician who declared that his agenda was to create an "atheist government". I would only support politicians who support a secular government. Do you understand the distinction?

Just because I'm an atheist, that doesn't mean that I have to desire or approve anything like what totalitarian collectivists have done in their efforts to order society. I'm a libertarian -- vastly opposed to totalitarianism and collectivism. My atheism doesn't make me resemble those guys in the slightest.

The simple truth is that, just as Christians span the range of politics, so too do atheists. There is no simple mapping of religious stance to political agenda.

eudaimonia,

Mark

ProScribe · Feb 2, 2012

SithDoughnut said:
So we're agreed that Christianity and the holocaust are intrinsically linked then?

No.

SithDoughnut · Feb 2, 2012

ProScribe said:
No.

By your logic, it does. Let's look at the comparison step by step:

You said "its about worldview and ideology that presupposes the rejection of God". Christianity is a worldview and ideology that presupposes that the Jews were wrong, and in several cases that they are the killers of Jesus.

You also said "and removing God out of government and society is summarized in atheistic thinking and a non-theist approach." This is a strawman argument, because atheism has nothing to do with government, but if we assume that it is valid, then getting rid of the Jews is equally a Christian approach.

You compare communist leaders and link atheism to them. Most of the Nazi party (including Hitler, possibly) were Christian.

So, by your logic, Christianity is intrinsically linked to the holocaust. If you disagree, then either you are wrong when you tell me it is not, or your argument about the atheism-communism link is wrong. So which one is it?

smaneck · Feb 2, 2012

Christianity is intimately linked with holocaust, not so much because Hitler and his ilk were Christians (a questionable proposition at best) but because anti-isemitism which prevailed in Christendom for so many hundreds of years created the atmosphere which allowed the holocaust to happen. I think most Christians with a sensitive conscience recognize this.
By the same token most of the genocides of the twentieth century can be laid at the feet of the ideologies which came to replace religion during the 19th and 20th centuries. Communism was one of them, but nationalism proved even more deadly and long-lasting.

Booko · Feb 2, 2012

This information may be relevant to the discussion where it is now:

Positive Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh...this too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany#Nazi_Attitudes_towards_Christianity

ProScribe · Feb 2, 2012

SithDoughnut said:
By your logic, it does. Let's look at the comparison step by step:

You said "its about worldview and ideology that presupposes the rejection of God". Christianity is a worldview and ideology that presupposes that the Jews were wrong, and in several cases that they are the killers of Jesus.

You also said "and removing God out of government and society is summarized in atheistic thinking and a non-theist approach." This is a strawman argument, because atheism has nothing to do with government, but if we assume that it is valid, then getting rid of the Jews is equally a Christian approach.

You compare communist leaders and link atheism to them. Most of the Nazi party (including Hitler, possibly) were Christian.

So, by your logic, Christianity is intrinsically linked to the holocaust. If you disagree, then either you are wrong when you tell me it is not, or your argument about the atheism-communism link is wrong. So which one is it?

Do you just want to prove yourself right in debate? . .

Eudaimonist · Feb 3, 2012

ProScribe said:
Do you just want to prove yourself right in debate? . .

What is your purpose in this thread?

eudaimonia,

Mark

ProScribe · Feb 3, 2012

Eudaimonist said:
What is your purpose in this thread?

eudaimonia,

Mark

What is my purpose in this thread? . .

Isaiah 46:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.’

. . . - Wesley

ProScribe · Feb 3, 2012

(Not anything against Secular Humanist Atheism in general - just know something about that form of government.)

Eudaimonist · Feb 3, 2012

ProScribe said:
(Not anything against Secular Humanist Atheism in general - just know something about that form of government.)

What form of government is that?

eudaimonia,

Mark

hello <wave> are you Secular Humanist Atheist?

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