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That's the logical fallacy of the question begging epithet!
It also does nothing to provide any evidence of a place called hell that is a place of eternal conscious torment.
Hello. Have you ever looked at the parable/story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16?Thatbrian, you misunderstand my intention.
As you can tell by my opening post, I am quite aware of diverse interpretations of hell, including many that do not paint God in an altogether unfavourable light.
I am mystified by Christians who do believe in something along the lines of what I've sketched in the OP, and fail to comprehend how anybody could hold such beliefs without recognizing what this implies about their image of deity.
The answer I'm seeking is not so much about theology, but about understanding a certain kind of believer better. I'd like to believe that there's some kind of redeeming quality, some angle that'd reveal how I could respect them more.
vs 26 The "great gulf" mentioned by Abraham is nothing less than God's blinding in this age of the Jews as a whole to the truth about their Messiah! It's not that the Jewish nation won't acknowledge Yeshua as the prophesied Messiah; they cannot recognize his true identity because of God's actions! Yet because of the Eternal Father's great mercy, this state of affairs will not last forever (Rom. 11:26).Luke 16:
14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they scoffed at Him. 15 He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts. For that which is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
19"Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day. 20A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22It happened that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried.
23In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. 24He cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me! and send Lazarus! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.' 25"But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But now here he is comforted and you are in anguish.
26Besides all this, between us and ye there is a great gulf fixed,
that those who want to pass from here to ye are not able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27"He said, 'I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house; 28for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won't also come into this place of torment.' 29"But Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.' 30"He said, 'No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.'"
Attempt to poison the wells by demanding an anthropomorphic mischaracterisation of God like man. You have already stipulated some of God's omni characteristics, so we certainly can appeal to characteristics that are essential attributes of the being you are defaming.To me, such a conception of hell reflects *extremely* badly on the corresponding conception of deity, and no argument from authority ("who are YOU to question an all-powerful being?????") will resolve the matter.
appeal to emotion and false analogylike torturing a dog with a branding iron for its failure to comprehend algebra.
appeal to emotion and false analogysetting up an eight-meter pit (with poisoned spikes at the bottom) for people to jump over when you *know* they'll never get further than 6 m.
appeal to snobbery and false analogyextending a pardon to all who wave the right party membership card
appeal to emotion and false analogybeing sent to Cosmic Auschwitz
Good question.In short: how do you manage to reconcile this belief with anything remotely resembling justice?
Hi TG@LittleLambofJesus, Is there some reason you resurrected a 3-yo dead thread?
Sorry. It's a pet peeve of mine. I see a "new" thread and then discover that it is, in fact, old. I feel like I've wasted my time. My preference is that one starts a new thread and, perhaps, references the old one.Hi TG
I was going to make a new one, but thought it may be better to bring this one up.
There could be a lot of new members that might be interested in some of the past posts. I know I am.
Hi TG. No worries.Sorry. It's a pet peeve of mine. I see a "new" thread and then discover that it is, in fact, old. I feel like I've wasted my time. My preference is that one starts a new thread and, perhaps, references the old one.i
But, I'm not in a position to make requests.
Feel free to ignore this.
I also have a question. The rules state:
"As a general guide for posting topics, non-Christians who are challenging Christianity should offer arguments as to why Christian beliefs are incorrect or untrue."
Rather than start with a specific argument as to why Christian beliefs are incorrect can I post a question to get the Christian belief on a topic first and then proceed to offer my arguments as to why I find them incorrect?
A fair response.Hi TG. No worries.
I just read the SOP for this board.
Jane_the_Bane started this thread, and from what I understand, it should be non-Christians that start threads on this board for Christians to respond.
[I believe I got that right.]
In which case, do you want to start new one?
Non-Christians: Read and Agree before Posting
Interesting point. Obviously, I do think "emotional appeal" is a logical fallacy - and yet...
When it comes to the case of saying "Do you think that this person, or any person, deserves to be tortured, in the most horrible ways, for eternity...
Well, I have to say, "Are you mad? Nobody deserves that!"
Would you disagree? If so, why?
Transferring conversation from a different thread...
Nobody deserves eternal punishment? Are you claiming that no human being has done anything that would merit eternal punishment? I'm still trying to understand your objection.
so when someone gets punished for raping and killing a pregnant mother, the courts are showing revenge? I don't think so, I believe the court is showing justice. Not revenge.Just punishment is not about "deserving it". That's revenge, and it just perpetuates a cycle of violence.
The most common purpose of punishment is (re-)socialisation, or - a testament to our relative helplessness - protecting society from those we cannot safely release without potential harm to others.
We may also compel an arsonist to pay for the damages he caused, so that the burned-down houses might be restored.
Eternal damnation serves none of these functions, and bears no commection to a viable concept of justice. God needs no preternatural prisons to protect people, re-socialisation is an impossibility if the culprit is kept there eternally, and not even a single victim of a mass murderer is brought back or recompensated by torturing the offending party.
Also, if we go with "sola fide", heaven will be filled with German protestants who participated in the holocaust, while the vast majority of murdered Jews, Roma, homosexuals, communists and so forth will be in hell because they "denied Jesus".
If the point of the punishment is hurting the culprit, and that suffering is an end instead of a means, then yes: it is revenge. Socially accepted, legally regulated, but still recognizably revenge.so when someone gets punished for raping and killing a pregnant mother, the courts are showing revenge? I don't think so, I believe the court is showing justice. Not revenge.
Nobody deserves eternal punishment? Are you claiming that no human being has done anything that would merit eternal punishment? I'm still trying to understand your objection.
what makes you think hell is demeaning, or dehumanizing? As far as recidivity rates are concerned: The gospel has changed more lives than prison systems. So I don't understand your point.If the point of the punishment is hurting the culprit, and that suffering is an end instead of a means, then yes: it is revenge. Socially accepted, legally regulated, but still recognizably revenge.
Outside of sinister theocracies, totalitarian states, and a few backwaters, there are few societies which embrace that kind of punishment. Torture has been outlawed in most places, so have dismemberment and executions, and prisons commonly serve the double agenda of keeping dangerous people away from the general populace, and trying to redeem them for a re-integration to society when their sentence is over.
Prison systems that focus on humiliating, demeaning and dehumanizing inmates produce the highest recidivity rates, because the criminals have learned to act like the beasts they were treated as.
If the point of the punishment is hurting the culprit, and that suffering is an end instead of a means, then yes: it is revenge. Socially accepted, legally regulated, but still recognizably revenge.
Outside of sinister theocracies, totalitarian states, and a few backwaters, there are few societies which embrace that kind of punishment. Torture has been outlawed in most places, so have dismemberment and executions, and prisons commonly serve the double agenda of keeping dangerous people away from the general populace, and trying to redeem them for a re-integration to society when their sentence is over.
Prison systems that focus on humiliating, demeaning and dehumanizing inmates produce the highest recidivity rates, because the criminals have learned to act like the beasts they were treated as.
How could the cosmic equivalent of a gulag or concentration camp, a place of utter hopelessness and perpetual torment, ever be anything else?what makes you think hell is demeaning, or dehumanizing?
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