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JackofSpades

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Such a fun and light topic. My intention is not to argue about whether there is hell or not, but rather just hear peoples thoughts about it.


- How big part idea of hell plays in your religiousness?

- How you manage to fit the idea of loving God and hellfire together? Is it possible?

- If you have changed your beliefs one way or another about this at some point in your life, want to share something about that?
 

KitKatMatt

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I can no longer fit the idea of a loving God and hell together.

I was brought up with the idea of hell pressed into me by the church. I was initially taught that God loved all, and forgave all. Then after a couple of years, they started instilling the idea of hell on us. Suddenly, the love of God was conditional. It created a lot of anxiety and stress about God that wrecked much of my life.

I'm not sure how those two beliefs existed in me at the same time for so long. I've finally rejected hell, though.
 
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Nanopants

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Hah! Light subject my behind.

- How big part idea of hell plays in your religiousness?
Very little. I remember when I was about 5 years old, being terrified by stories of burning alive in hell, in a basement along with the rest of the kids. I was so frightened, the youth pastors had to remind me that I had already been baptized and I was "saved." That's about it. After that, I became agnostic, and stories of hell never played a very big part of my personal faith even after I came back to faith later in life.

- How you manage to fit the idea of loving God and hellfire together? Is it possible?
It is when considering the justice of God, which is very reflective, in a sense. Christ demonstrates this: in one chapter (Mat 5) He says "blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy" and goes onto rather terrifying statements about how it's better to dismember one's self than to be cast into hell. Is He schizophrenic? I think most people behaving in this way might be considered to be, but Christ is consistent, and in the Gospels He reflects the attitudes, dispositions and such of those around Him (He had both followers and adversaries). So the character of God, in my view, is consistently reflective of a variable humanity.

His discourse on every sin being forgiven, except one, is useful in explaining this: if God is love, merciful, just and benevolent, Hell would be like a product of one's own creation in rejecting the character or nature of God as evil, in which case He can be perceived as a consuming fire, and these principles are demonstrated in the Gospels through the events leading to the crucifixion of Christ. So Hell would be like being unable to escape what one has imagined to be evil (though He never was), which could be very tormentuous.

That said, Hell can be seen as more of a state of being, a spiritual "place" which can be experienced on earth, rather than a physical locale. It's also not exactly something that's alien to the "redeemed." David wrote "If I make my bed in Sheol, behold you are there" and I assume he didn't just make that up out of thin air while he was alive, but rather, he was describing an experience, so in a sense it can be descriptive of the human condition in some cases, such that even saints can "go to hell," and be redeemed from it.

That these things are described as "eternal," I believe, is derived from the eternality of God.

- If you have changed your beliefs one way or another about this at some point in your life, want to share something about that?
Having experienced God in a way that was so far removed from any concept of hell, both totally removed my fear of condemnation, and explained to me how and why people perceive the presence of God to be hell.
 
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Nanopants

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In my case it was schizophrenic, mindless preaching. It's like nobody stopped to ask "hey, wait a minute, aren't we contradicting ourselves?"
 
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agua

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Before I can discuss hell I need to know which hell you mean.

1. The grave/ hades/sheol
2. Gehenna
3. The Lake of fire
4. Tartarus

I have never changed my belief on hell ( the varying definitions )because the Bible tells us clearly what it/they is/are.

ETA 4.
 
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SarahsKnight

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Well, you already know me, Jack. I am an annihlationist, and pretty much Nano's and Kitt's reflections on this subject echo mine.

I not only find eternal torture (that's what it is, folks, let's not mince words) to be incompatible with God's mercy AND justice, but also way too Biblically inaccurate in most passages that deal on the subject. So both ways it is extremely fishy, emotionally and Biblically. I'll leave it at that.


But anyway, there is a lot I could say on my story in chaging my viewpoint from the traditional version to the belief in literal death and human mortality. I 've actually been intending to make an entire thread detailing my journey to this point starting with a terrible OCD sickness I had a few years ago. But, there's a lot to it, so it may be a while before I take the time to put it all together, although changing viewpoints on this theological debate would not be the main purpose of it, or to get everyone to believe the same thing.
 
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JackofSpades

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I can no longer fit the idea of a loving God and hell together..... I was initially taught that God loved all, and forgave all. Then after a couple of years, they started instilling the idea of hell on us.

Neither can I.

For me it went more or less other way around, first there was the hell etc. (happy childhood, huh?) and later on I began to see god as benelovent, good guy while still believing in hell and the contradiction didn't really bother me for some time. It was only later when I started to agonize over the compatibility.


Well, you already know me, Jack. I am an annihlationist, and pretty much Nano's and Kitt's reflections on this subject echo mine.

Yeah I remember our last conversation about it, mainly because I got all my posts deleted in it




Sounds like Matrix in afterlife. I would find it bit odd if imagination or false beliefs would have such powerful impact in afterlife. I'm more fixated to idea that everyone will finally see the real truth in there, whether thats pleasant or not (I have no idea what there really is so I can't really say is it going to be pleasant or not).

I remember hearing that Eastern orthodox Christians believe something like that about hell, but I've never checked any of their official statements.
 
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Nanopants

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Sounds like Matrix in afterlife. I would find it bit odd if imagination or false beliefs would have such powerful impact in afterlife.

That's reality though. I'm not trying to describe something beyond reality, my beliefs amount to my view of reality, and in reality, we all have different views and beliefs about reality, and these differences affect reality. I.e. people are often mistreated, killed, even go to war, in part because of differences in these views, so it's not so much about which "facts" one believes, but what one believes is right behavior that matters: if one believes it's right to burn heretics who haven't harmed anyone, it's because that's what he believes his god does, but Christ describes and shows that God is reflective of the individual's character.

I have heard that too. I think I share some similarities with them.
 
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JackofSpades

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I'll have to wait until I know which posters from here made it to Heaven before I'll know if I want out.


I have no idea who here have made it to your "preferable buddies to spend eternity with" - list, but if we assume that all of those went to hell, would the hell then really be hell?
 
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r0keye

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Hell is where I, a wretch, deserved to go.

I think some people here don't understand the depths of their sin before a perfect, holy, righteous God!

I have lived a wretched life of sexual immorality, hurting women around me, calling myself a Christian yet using porn, fornicating, thinking thoughts of rape and incest.

Murderous thoughts enter my mind towards others nearly every day. I have had thoughts of acts of terrorism against extremist groups that I hate. I have had thoughts of violence toward my very own family due to my inability to forgive others.

Sure I haven't acted upon them, but God judges the very intentions of our heart!
If I lived in a third world country, with no police force or judicial system, I am sure I would have acted on far more of my impulses.

That is why Jesus spoke so hard against the Pharisees, they thought they were so righteous yet there hearts were so hard. Todays Pharisee's are.. ATHIESTS. They think they are good without God!

Matthew 15:19: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."
 
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Nanopants

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If murderous thoughts enter your mind every day, no offense intended, but may I please suggest therapy.

If your church is encouraging this, may I suggest running for the hills. You're in the company of people with murderous intent.

That is why Jesus spoke so hard against the Pharisees, they thought they were so righteous yet there hearts were so hard. Todays Pharisee's are.. ATHIESTS. They think they are good without God!

Then why on earth did they spend so much time debating him on morality and the law of God?
 
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r0keye

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a) The people in my church are actually teaching me and others how to love and forgive.

Matthew 5:43: "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven."

'Therapy' hasn't helped much. However, getting on my knees before my Saviour and begging for forgiveness and a change of heart has!


b) I don't know, but the Pharisees confronted Jesus so much about the law because they were only following the law to be seen to be upright good people! (Just like Athiests) But Jesus exposed their corrupt hearts.
 
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KitKatMatt

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The depths of human sin and depravity is terrifying! I agree. But it makes what Jesus did on the cross SO MUCH MORE AMAZING!

It was more about the part where you said if law enforcement was lacking, you would have acted on your impulses.
 
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r0keye

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It was more about the part where you said if law enforcement was lacking, you would have acted on your impulses.

This is why God puts the authorities in place I believe.

Romans 13:1 - Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

So many people have such a glowing view of themselves, they don't realise that it is generally their upbringing that is what causes them to be obedient, not their 'goodness'. Ask any person raised in a mob family.

Mark 10:18: "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
 
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