Hell

Vix said:

Edial,

I think it's unfair of you to imply that my statements are not interesting enough for you. I started this thread by asking questions and maybe I've now found some of my own answers. I can't see any harm in putting my opinion across just like everyone else. Unless you're implying that I'm not entitled to an opinion because I don't believe the same as you?

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No problem. I apologize.
Ed

Vix said:

Why exactly am I setting myself up to reject Christ?

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I presented that in my post.

- You do not accept a good man going to hell and experience a mind numbing pain. Reasonable.
- Christ is telling us that no one can get to heaven, but through him alone.
- Christ is teaching that outside of him there is hell.

Since you posted no follow up questions it is unlikely that you can come up with a "way out" of this dilemma and the only reasonable answer is that you are set up for a rejection of the Christ (his teachings, same thing), because you cannot accept that a good man can wind up in a place where there is a mind-numbing pain.

If you would state that you will accept Christ "the way you understand him", it is not sufficient neither. The Bible presents that there is also "another Christ" that looks just like the one we know, yet is a demon.
And many "choose" to believe in him.

So far you are defending yourself, Vix.

You are not asking questions.

Thanks,
Ed

Vix said:

First of all thank you for your apology.

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No problem. Anytime.

Vix said:

You are asuming that just because I didn't ask any questions here that I havn't come up with any answers. Are you saying then that this thread, and your opinions are the only way to find answers? I have found my own answers in my own way. Why is that not sufficient? I haven't said or implied in any way that I worship demons. Every single human being is different, and therefore everyone has different interpretations of God, that does not mean that those that don't view God in the same way that you do see Him as the devil!!!!

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No problem.
And so far you have not asked any questions.
And my opinions are not the only way to find answers as you put it, but I do know the Bible. And I know it well.
And I do have few people that benefitted significantly after our discussions. We even became friends after that.

I really do not want to make it a personal issue between us. There are no issues.
I also do know that I rub certain people the wrong way.
It is not intentional, so I cannot even apologize for it.
But I will bow out.

No problem.
Ed

Please do not take this personally, but I am thinking it is truly possible that since this is your husband, you would not want to believe that he could go to an extreme Hell b/c you yourself know how good he is.

If it were my husband that were not saved, I would not want to believe that either.
Hell should be your motivation.

Ginny said:

The point is, heaven and hell is being compared to nothing more than a day spa with bad customer service....

I firmly believe if one starts thnking in their mind that hell itself is in no way derogatory, then that will in no way whatsoever motivate someone to truly bring another to Christ- b/c "hey, there really is no loss due to no suffering, no consequences, and no repercussions for one's decision" (just the absence of Jesus).

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I understand what you are saying, but I don't think the answer is in horrifying pictures of people perpetually on fire being unable to die, as is the traditional "hellfire and brimstone" way of teaching avoidance of hell. (fire insurance isn't really the message of the Gospel anyway, but that's another topic... ).

I think it's only a matter of defining terms. I do believe that the absolute worst part of hell, for those who end up there, will be the absence of God. but when we are speaking of the absense of God, we must speak of the finer implications. We can do that by doing two things.

First we must understand that the universe is currently enjoying the benefits of what we call the "General Grace of God". Without that the universe quite frankly could not exist at all in it's fallen state. Corruption would have immediately separated it once and for all from God. so it is this general Grace that keeps it in suspension by the will of God in order that He do the things He wishes to do. The most common scriptural support for the idea are the scriptures that say that God causes the sun to shine on the just and the unjust. That sort of thing.

Secondly, the attributes of God are still at work in the universe, though of course it is not 100% all encompassing like it was before the fall. What I mean by this is that even completely unregenerate people sometimes do or think nice things. People can actually sometime show mercy. Those sorts of things. The things that allow us to have society at all are directly because of and through the attributes of God. The bible tells us God's attributes. If we were to list them we would see that they are those things that are good. Jesus said, nobody is good but God, and that is true. He is Love, He is Mercy, He is Gentile, He is King, He is basically all that is good. Period.

So now, as you think about an existance apart from God, what exactly are you coming up with? A place with no hope. No mercy. No love. No conscience. No caring. No thing but unrestricted evil, forever. It is a place where nobody and nothing rules. Ever. Why? Because to rule in hell would necessarily imply that sombody won, and there will be no winning in hell. Only loss, after loss, after loss. The abject totality of dispair...forever.

Actually, I've just barely touched on the implications of the absence of God. But I hope the concept is is a little more understandable.

Asaph

Vix said:

That's a very understandable way of showing what hell is like, thank you.



Ginny, I think you're right, I'm so scared of him and every other person I love going to hell. I know God exists because I feel His presence when I pray but if I am to accept Christ completely then I have to accept the hell thing too. I just feel like it's a wall in front of me that I can't crash down. Maybe I love my family and friends more than I love God, and that's why I can't accept it. I know that's a horrible thing to admit to christians and I'm sorry but I just feel torn. If I accept Christ completely then I turn my back on everyone I love, I just don't think I can do that.

Edial,

Sorry for getting so defensive before, I didn't mean to. Thanks for trying to help.
xx

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Your honesty about this is like a breath of fresh air. The bible says that it is the Goodness of God that leads us to repentance. What this means is that the questions you are having, and the torn feelings arising from it, are merely the Holy Spirit whispering into your heart saying "Come, and see. Just as you are...come".

What if God's plan is to save you first in order to show His Love through you to your loved ones? What if He is asking you to give up all attachments to anyone but Him, in order to show you the perfection of His Love?

If you were to reject God and ended up in hell with all those whom you love now, do you realize you will hate them and they will hate you forever? There is no Love in hell. God is love, and He won't be there.

Asaph

Vix said:

That's a very understandable way of showing what hell is like, thank you.



Ginny, I think you're right, I'm so scared of him and every other person I love going to hell. I know God exists because I feel His presence when I pray but if I am to accept Christ completely then I have to accept the hell thing too. I just feel like it's a wall in front of me that I can't crash down. Maybe I love my family and friends more than I love God, and that's why I can't accept it. I know that's a horrible thing to admit to christians and I'm sorry but I just feel torn. If I accept Christ completely then I turn my back on everyone I love, I just don't think I can do that.

Edial,

Sorry for getting so defensive before, I didn't mean to. Thanks for trying to help.
xx

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Vix, you'll probably throw me out of the room. No problem.

Please look at the dilemma that I said that was unraveling.

It is happening. Can you see that?

You said -

Maybe I love my family and friends more than I love God, and that's why I can't accept it. I know that's a horrible thing to admit to christians and I'm sorry but I just feel torn. If I accept Christ completely then I turn my back on everyone I love, I just don't think I can do that.

Vix. Please look at our previous posts. You are currently in danger of making an inapropriet decision.

Vix. You still are not asking how to get out of this sotuation.

I truly do not think that you want to get out of it, since you are not even "grasping at straws".

It looks like you made your choice "to drown".

There is a way out for you AND your family.

Vix. START ASKING QUESTIONS ON HOW NOT TO DROWN.

SNAP OUT OF IT.

Ed

Vix said:

I wouldn't throw you out of the room as you are intitled to your opinions just as everyone else is. I find it interesting however that you chose to write 'no problem' indicating that you wouldn't care if you were thrown out, I can only then assume that you also don't care if I listen to your opinion or not. Which leads me to wonder why wrote anything at all. Was it to get a reaction back from me? Was it to hurt me? Was it just to express your own love for God? .

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None of them.

Vix said:

Just so you know that sort of comment is exactly what turns people away from christianity. I wonder if that's what you wanted to achieve.

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No Vix.
You were going away from the Christianity.

I tried to stop you, any which way I could.

But I will not accept you going away from the Lord.

Love,
Ed

Vix said:

Thank you for your comments and your patience. I think that's a really interesting point about God maybe having a plan to save me first, its something I hadn't thought about before but I think you could be right. I think it will take a long time though, my loved ones are very determined on their beliefs and I don't want to start preaching to them about something I don't truely understand myself yet, but I'll keep going and try to find more answers.

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Keep seeking and He will find you. I know you mentioned earlier that you pray. Keep at it, and read your bible as often as you can. God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

And once you do get born again, you won't have to preach anything to anybody. The light shining through you will draw them.

God is Love,
Asaph

Edial said:

Jerry, if you see that there is much confusion concerning the Hades/Sheol how then do you know for certain that people cannot be saved from it from within it?
Ed

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The confusion to which I refer is in regards to the meaning of these two terms on this forum. There is no secound chance between Hades/Sheol and the lake of fire. There is no Biblical statement which suggests that one can after death alter his/her eternal abode.

Edial said:

One does not have verses that state that one cannot be saved from Sheol. And I know of a verse that states that a man was indeed saved from Sheol.

Ed

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And what would that be?

Edial said:

The Bible presents only one condition for not being saved from the Hades/Sheol (no second chance) and that is rejecting Christ "to his face" in this life. These that reject him here will not have life and will wind up in the Burning Lake.

Ed

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Where does the Bible state that rejection of Jesus sends on to the lake of fire? It is our sin that sends us there! Acceptance of the redemption of Christ will redeeme one from the lake, but without redemption it is the sin which will result in an eternity in the Lake of fire.

Edial said:

There are people that never heard of Christ (some Chinese farmer, for example). And there are babies that are aborted. And, if one is holding to the "age of accountability" theology - it is simply not ethical to wind up in hell for a "parking ticket".

Ed

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If anyone finds themself in the lake of fire, it will be a result of their own sin. The "Chinese farmer" will not be in the lake of fire becasue he rejected Jesus, he will be there because of his sin. If he did not experience redemption, he will have to suffer for his sins.

Parking ticket? You are minimizing the effect of sin aren't you? Is sin unimportant to you? Sin warped this whole creation that God initially regarded as "good"! To minimize the nature of sin is to cheepen the sacrifice of Jesus! No, I am sorry but the Scripture is very clear regarding sin and its effects, those whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life will find themselves in the lake of fire...for all eternity.

Edial said:

Jerry. To say that there is no salvation from the Hades/Sheol for the ones that never heard of Christ is not Biblical. (But I do realize that this is a common thought among the many).

Thanks,
Ed

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Ed, well the way to prove this is to show the evidence where the Bible teaches this.

Edial said:

I understand that we deserve hell by nature. No problem.
But I have not noticed God working that way, not in the Bible not in life.

When he provides salvation to all he will take nothing less than a clear "no" for answer. And it is very Biblical .

Thanks,
Ed

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A clear no? I think you are missing the fact that it is our sin which sends a person to the lake of fire, not their rejection of Christ. Their sin. Where do you see this "clear no" in Scripture? You see once we sin, we reap the penalty for our sin, that being eternal punishment....if we do nothing about that punishment... we will endure that punishment. God has provided a way that that punishment could be paid by another, that other person is Jesus Christ. He can redeem a person from the penalty of their sin. Yet it was their sin which would have caused them to endure eternal torment. It is Sin that causes punishment! There is no clear "NO", we are all sinners in need of a saviour. It is our sin which will eternally seperate us from the presence of God in the lake of fire for all eternity.