Hell: the "power generator" for Heaven?

[Blue Money]

If Christianity is true, then those to be damned must have been destined to be damned from before the beginning of time (after all, God knows everthing down to the exact time your ten millonth hair falls out, and nothing happens that is not His will anyway. You can't surprise Him.)
The question I've always had is as follows: why keep the sinners around, in a conscious state? Why not just annihilate them? Yes, God should not have to allow sinners into his Heaven - but why preserve their existence then? After all, what use are they - to serve as an object lesson for those in Heaven? If so, then it will still be possible for man can have another "Fall" after the Divine Judgement. The possibility of sin will always be there. lurking like a tiger... and sooner or later (given eternity!) another angel will get proud and "here we go again" with the drama.
So, I see only ONE way that the "eternal torture in Hell" scenario can work. It is a yin-yang sort of deal in which ultimate happiness cannot exist without the complementary existence of eternal suffering. To "power" Heaven's happiness, an equal amount of misery has to exist. God therefore uses the torture of skeptics and heathens as fuel for the happiness of the saints.
Talk about TANSTAAFL ("there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.") Is this a credible theory, given that it makes God subject to an external principle? Any answers you have, give them please!

 

[fm107]

So why does God not just make these people non-existant instead of sending them to Hell?

Because God is just.

People must get punished for their crimes it is only right.

The punishment for sin is Hell.

Fortunately since God loves us so much he has sent his own son to die for the sins of mankind that whosoever believes in him and repents of their wicked ways may be excused from this punishment.

So since I have asked Jesus to pardon me of my sin and turned from my wicked ways, I am in the clear.

But many have not asked Jesus to do this and continue in their life of sin. Therefore their sins have not been pardoned and because they die in their sins they will go to Hell for their sins.

It's simply down to the fact that God is just.

 

[Born_Again_in_Jesus]

I want to reassure you that your worry about these earthly issues distracts from your attention to prayer, Jesus, and the hereafter. God's earth, and all the people in it are just as they should be. They are all part of God's Will and Plan for us. Trying to change things is the work of the devil getting into you and you must resist the temptation to take part in earthly debates, such as politics, abortion, war, etc. What is, is because of God. We are powerless to change his will, and must truly love God by accepting all he sends to us as tests. Floods, Tsunamis, Earthquakes, Drought, Famine, Fire, are all in his omniscient power to prevent, but he does not. Why? We shall not know, as the bible tells us, "God works in strange ways."

The greek scripture for this is quite clear:

Γονάτισε μπροστά του θεού. Ανελκυστήρα μέχρι ρούχα σας ότι μπορεί να έχετε δει για το ποιος είσαι. Πάρτε τον στο στόμα σου και στο πρωκτό σας και να ξέρετε τον για το ποιος είναι.

This roughly means Do not question your God, but obey him, and kneel before him, and take all he give you even if it is painful, for he is God and knows best.

 

[Van]

Hi Blue Money, thanks for the thought provoking opening post. First, let me say that Christians are divided on some issues, and part of the reason some of us do not think the Calvinist view of scripture is valid is your reaction to it. So lets back-up and talk about Christianity from a different biblical view.

Lets start with the doctrine of Omniscience, the idea that God is all-knowing. Two views of this doctrine are as follows: One, the Calvinist view, is that God knows everything imaginable, past, present and future. The other view, sometimes called inherent omniscience, is that God knows everything He has chosen to know. God can choose not to know somethings and to know other things. This view is consistent with the account of Abraham, where, rather than read Abraham like an open book, God instead tests Abraham to find out the strength of his faith in God. When Abraham raises the knife to slay his son, God says stop, "Now I know...." Before that test, God had chosen not to know what Abraham would do.

Words have meaning and if a doctrine makes a mockery of the meaning of the very words God inspired to reveal Himself, then the doctrine is unsound at best.

Next you correctly say, from the Calvinist view, that God ordains whatsoever comes to pass. The alternate view is God either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. And if God allows men to make choices that alter the future outcome of their life, that is something He allows, rather than something He deterministically causes.

This alternate view would say that you cannot surprise God, unless God allows Himself to be surprised.

Next you present the Calvinist view of Hell, where humans suffer torment consciously for eternity. The alternate view, called the Conditionalist view, is that when humans are tossed into the Lake of Fire, they are punished for their misdeeds which is just punishment. After that, they are destroyed and no longer have any awareness. This view defines "eternal punishment" as eternal separation from God, even though they cease to be aware of their punishment once justice has been satisfied.

Next, you talk about the possibility of sinning again in Heaven like the fallen angels did in the past. Lets talk a little about our range of choices. We can choose not to sin, but we cannot choose to be sinless because we are conceived in iniquity. We can flap our arms and try to fly, but no matter how hard we flap them, we do not achieve lift-off (unless equiped with additional apparatus.) So right now we are not free to do everything imaginable. We are not free to think about what does not occur to us. Before we are "born again" Christians can choose to be devoted to Christ, or not. Once a person is actually born again, then our faith in Christ is protected so we will inherit eternal life. God, according to scripture, has the power to limit our range of thought. Once we enter our "glorified bodies" our range of thought is further limited such that it does not occur to us to sin. So we can be at peace for eternity, never battling fleshly desires to go against God's opportunities for our enjoyment.

I know I have presented a radically different view of Biblical Christianity than the traditions of the middle ages, but I believe they are consistent with all scripture.

May God Bless

 

[Blue Money]

So why does God not just make these people non-existant instead of sending them to Hell?

Because God is just.

People must get punished for their crimes it is only right.

The punishment for sin is Hell.

Fortunately since God loves us so much he has sent his own son to die for the sins of mankind that whosoever believes in him and repents of their wicked ways may be excused from this punishment.

So since I have asked Jesus to pardon me of my sin and turned from my wicked ways, I am in the clear.

But many have not asked Jesus to do this and continue in their life of sin. Therefore their sins have not been pardoned and because they die in their sins they will go to Hell for their sins.

It's simply down to the fact that God is just.
*******************************
Is not being deprived of eternal life in Heaven "punishment" enough?
Or are you saying the Heaven you believe in "ain't that great?"
Seems to me that if the carrot is so good, what's the point of the
stick..?

 

[aiki]

If Christianity is true, then those to be damned must have been destined to be damned from before the beginning of time (after all, God knows everthing down to the exact time your ten millonth hair falls out, and nothing happens that is not His will anyway. You can't surprise Him.)

Being aware of a particular future occurrence is not the same as causing that occurrence. That God knew from eternity past what someone would do while they lived on earth does not make Him directly responsible for that person's actions.

There is some reason to think that God does not exist within the linear constraints of time. He caused time to exist and so cannot therefore be subject to it. God's experience or knowledge of our past, present, and future may well be instantaneous, not unfolding before Him as events do before us. The questions that arise, then, out of our experience and understanding of time may not be appropriate questions to pose in regard to the Creator of time.

The question I've always had is as follows: why keep the sinners around, in a conscious state? Why not just annihilate them? Yes, God should not have to allow sinners into his Heaven - but why preserve their existence then?

Punishment is by definition experienced. A man who faces the punishment of the gallows only suffers that punishment so long as he lives. When he is dead and unable to experience anything further, the punishment is ended. Annihilation, then, would prevent punishment. God, however, has sworn to punish the wicked and thus cannot use annihilation to do so.

It is a testimony to the heinous nature of sin that God punishes it with eternal torment. We ought to understand that, if God renders such a terrible judgment upon sin, it is awful in the extreme. Instead, many simply think God is over-reacting to sin. The reality, however, is that we are severely under-reacting to it. This is one of the fundamental differences between our perfectly holy God and we sin-cursed creatures.

After all, what use are they - to serve as an object lesson for those in Heaven?

No, I don't think so.

So, I see only ONE way that the "eternal torture in Hell" scenario can work. It is a yin-yang sort of deal in which ultimate happiness cannot exist without the complementary existence of eternal suffering. To "power" Heaven's happiness, an equal amount of misery has to exist. God therefore uses the torture of skeptics and heathens as fuel for the happiness of the saints.
Talk about TANSTAAFL ("there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.") Is this a credible theory, given that it makes God subject to an external principle? Any answers you have, give them please!

God cannot by definition be subject to anything outside of Himself. And nothing in the Scriptures suggest that the eastern religious concept of balancing opposites is a necessary truth. Yes, we see an array of opposites at work in our universe, but in God Himself, who is perfect, there is no such "balance." "God is light," the Bible says, "and in Him is no darkness at all."

Peace.

 

[fm107]

So why does God not just make these people non-existant instead of sending them to Hell?

Because God is just.

People must get punished for their crimes it is only right.

The punishment for sin is Hell.

Fortunately since God loves us so much he has sent his own son to die for the sins of mankind that whosoever believes in him and repents of their wicked ways may be excused from this punishment.

So since I have asked Jesus to pardon me of my sin and turned from my wicked ways, I am in the clear.

But many have not asked Jesus to do this and continue in their life of sin. Therefore their sins have not been pardoned and because they die in their sins they will go to Hell for their sins.

It's simply down to the fact that God is just.
*******************************
Is not being deprived of eternal life in Heaven "punishment" enough?
Or are you saying the Heaven you believe in "ain't that great?"
Seems to me that if the carrot is so good, what's the point of the
stick..?

Heaven is God's gift to those who have fessed up and changed their ways.

Hell is the opposite.

I got to run to work sorry.

 

[Xyster]

Sorry there is no hell.. either that or there is no Love.. I know there is love but have no proof of hell..So its safe to say there is NO HELL.....

COR 13 4. love never what?

 

[Blue Money]

Sorry there is no hell.. either that or there is no Love.. I know there is love but have no proof of hell..So its safe to say there is NO HELL.....

COR 13 4. love never what?
*********************
As a fellow non-believer in eternal torture for failing to grovel before the Big Sky Guy, wouldn't it be cool if we could TRULY know there was NO GOD?
I find the idea of "Heaven and Hell" to be incredibly depressing. I'd have to be... ME, with all my personality quirks, bad memories, and weaknesses, FOREVER. Screw that.
What would be really awesome, if the "infinite multiverses" theory is true, enabling a form of "eternal recurrence." You'd keep living your life over and over, but due to natural randomness you'd experience every imaginable variation of yourself, including genetic ones! Maybe I'd be a super-rich business tycoon in my next recurrence, or the heavyweight MMA champion of the world, or the equivalent of Hugh Hefner. Talk about an eternal adventure! Maybe you'd even recur as other people, or aliens ect.

 

[Xyster]

Im good with limited time... makes life..well .. MORE.... eternal life would make life WORTHLESS

 

[fm107]

Man likes to believe what sounds good to them.

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what you believe, it doesn't change the fact that Heaven and Hell exist.

Unlike you, I am not depressed about this but joyful because I know I am going to Heaven. As for you, you are depressed about this because somewhere deep down you know that in your current sinful sate you are going to Hell when you die.

God hasn't asked you to do anything which is hard has he? All he says is simply believe on Jesus and repent of your sins.

Repentance isn't just saying you’re sorry, it's when you are both sorry for your sins and turn away from sinning. So if you’re a thief, you will stop steeling, if your a liar you will stop lying and so on.

What's so hard about that? Going to Church will not get you into Heaven, doing good doesn't get you into Heaven either. Simply believing and repenting is all that God asks of you.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

................................................................................................

You mentioned God's love...

John 3:16-21
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

Know this about God's love, he created you AND he sent his son to die in your place.

There is a day where Jesus will return to judge the world. No ones knows when this day will be but God himself. But God is patient because he loves you!

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

...........................................................................................

Blue Money, to answer your previous question which was...Why is not getting into Heaven enough of a punishment?

Let me put it like this...

If you murdered someone and went to court, would it be right for the judge to say as punishment, your no longer allowed going here or there. Of course not, the judge would send you to prison to do time.

So there must be punishment for crime, it's only right. I hope my analogy is sufficient.

 

[aiki]

Xyster:

Only one non-Christian is to be posting in each thread. You should not, as a non-Christian, be posting responses in a forum where "Christians offer support to non-Christians."

Please feel free to start your own thread, if you like, and ask what questions you want of Christians.

Thanks.

Aiki.

 

[Blue Money]

fm107, you wrote:
Man likes to believe what sounds good to them.

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what you believe, it doesn't change the fact that Heaven and Hell exist.
**********
-Scientific proof, please. I say Charlie the Talking Grape exists somewhere out there, given an INFINITE, constantly changing "megaverse" and the possible existence laws of physics foreign to our own. Disprove my assertion, and then maybe I'll give credence to yours. BTW, centuries of tradition by a corrupt, artificial, formed-by-committee joke of a "Church" (the Roman Catholic cult) doesn't count, fm107. (Those power-hungry 4th-century priests probably made some "adjustments" to scripture to bolster the "eternal torture" interpretation of damnation - after all, look what they did to the Ten Commandments to get past that pesky "graven images" prohibition..!)


...........................................................................................

Blue Money, to answer your previous question which was...Why is not getting into Heaven enough of a punishment?

Let me put it like this...

If you murdered someone and went to court, would it be right for the judge to say as punishment, your no longer allowed going here or there. Of course not, the judge would send you to prison to do time.
**********
Or your judge could send me to the chair (annihilate me.) Are you telling me that being deprived of existence isn't a punishment? Several thousand death row inmates here in the States (most of whom are Christians) would beg to differ with you, "mate." Any lawyer will tell you that most of them are desperate to stave off their executions, if only by a day - or an hour.
BTW, where is your "do the time for the crime" analogy in Scripture? Chapter and verse, please.

 

[Xyster]

Man likes to believe what sounds good to them.

1.The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what you believe, it doesn't change the fact that Heaven and Hell exist.

2.Unlike you, I am not depressed about this but joyful because I know I am going to Heaven. As for you, you are depressed about this because somewhere deep down you know that in your current sinful sate you are going to Hell when you die.

3.God hasn't asked you to do anything which is hard has he? All he says is simply believe on Jesus and repent of your sins.

4.Repentance isn't just saying you’re sorry, it's when you are both sorry for your sins and turn away from sinning. So if you’re a thief, you will stop steeling, if your a liar you will stop lying and so on.

for the sake of time Ill adress part of your post and to cut down on any confusion ive placed numbers that will corrispond with my responces.

1. This is just an assertion... There is NO proof of heaven or hell..

2. LOL depressed... I havent been depressed sence I gave up religion YEARS ago.. I now Live free...And I do the right moral thing not becouse of heaven or hell , but just becouse its the right thing to do.

3. Needs to be a god b4 he can do ANYTHING... I repent for nothing .. I hold myself accountable for my own actions. If I would do anything illegal my peers would hold me accountable.... Life is not fair and sometimes horrible people get away with horrible stuff....

4. NO NO NO... there are no SINS.. there is wright and wrong... If you wrong someone by either Intent or accident you should appoligize and then make it right with yourself and the person you wronged.

 

[Xyster]

You mentioned God's love...

Know this about God's love, he created you AND he sent his son to die in your place.

There is a day where Jesus will return to judge the world. No ones knows when this day will be but God himself. But God is patient because he loves you!

Thats OBSERD ok lets break this down a bit.... Supposedly someone who knows all sees all ect.. ect... the OMNI guy Mr. Perfect yadda yadda yadda... makes adam and eve making them pure and ignorant/niaeve KNOWING that the serpent would trick them puts the tree of life in their back yard anyhow.. well we all know the story they screw up get sent out of paradice and he will now hold all of humanity (even though they had nothing to do with it) forever responcable for a mistake he made in the firat place.. well I say it was a set up. Then later on he has found his creations screwing up again and supposidly floods the world and kills everything..
Then he demands all these BLOOD sacrifices (goats, turtledoves...ect..) to pay for our "sins" like a woman having a period (that appernantly is a choice) then one day was thinking about all this sacrifice stuff and figured he had enough.. The creator of everything Mr. Unfallible..ect.. the best thing he could come up with was to... Come to earth and then sacrifice himself to himself (holy trin)to make a loophole in a rule that he created himself?!? umm right...

 

[Xyster]

Xyster:

Only one non-Christian is to be posting in each thread. You should not, as a non-Christian, be posting responses in a forum where "Christians offer support to non-Christians."

Please feel free to start your own thread, if you like, and ask what questions you want of Christians.

Thanks.

Aiki.

Why so you can play gang up on the Atheist?!? But as far as I'm concerned this is Blues thread if he wants me out.. Ill bow out but if you want me to bow out so you can play Christian smackdown with multiple people vs 1 im gonna have to say NOPE take your communistic rule that I think you made up and pitch it (trying to be nice about it )..... Got your back Blue.. but ill leave if you like

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[Xyster]

You mean Calvinism? Predestination simply means that we can be like the apostles. That is all. The Calvinist interpretation is not correct.

Yes, God knows who will go to heaven and hell, but that person's destiny can change if he repents.

Revelation 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So evidently, God can add to and take away from the Book of Life whenever He desires. A person's destiny can change.

Umm wouldent he already know if you were gonna repent... Im sure that would fall under All knowing.

 

[Blue Money]

Thats OBSERD ok lets break this down a bit.... Supposedly someone who knows all sees all ect.. ect... the OMNI guy Mr. Perfect yadda yadda yadda... makes adam and eve making them pure and ignorant/niaeve KNOWING that the serpent would trick them puts the tree of life in their back yard anyhow.. well we all know the story they screw up get sent out of paradice and he will now hold all of humanity (even though they had nothing to do with it) forever responcable for a mistake he made in the firat place.. well I say it was a set up.
**********
LOL yeah, imagine I put two innocent kids in a room - I put a hand grenade in the middle of that room, tell the kids DON'T pull that pin or you'll "die" (go to eternal torment after living for 900 years actually) after putting lots of other round objects in the room that they can pull the pins out of to their hearts content... and THEN I go fishing and let Oilcan Harry (who I know hates those kids) come and tempt them to pull the pin on the grenade.
THEN, I get mad at the kids (instead of myself) for failing a test I myself KNEW they would fail.
Nice guy, ain't I?
BTW Xyster, yeah it's my thread but I'm cool with you posting ("One non-Christian per thread?" Why, can't they collectively deal with more than one freethinker at a time???)

 

[aiki]

Why so you can play gang up on the Atheist?!? But as far as I'm concerned this is Blues thread if he wants me out.. Ill bow out but if you want me to bow out so you can play Christian smackdown with multiple people vs 1 im gonna have to say NOPE take your communistic rule that I think you made up and pitch it (trying to be nice about it )..... Got your back Blue.. but ill leave if you like

Actually, the forum rules stipulate the one non-Christian per thread thing:

"This forum is similiar to Exploring Christianity in the way that ONLY Christians will be allowed to reply."

Its not up to Bluemoney if you stay or not. If you flaunt this rule, you risk being banned by the moderators. Please respect the rules of this forum or leave it. Thanks.

Aiki.