HELL IS NOT A SECRET TO BE KEPT

Der Alter said:

…..People often argue that the concept of hell was coopted from Greek or other pagan societies. According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

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Jesus did teach all go to the grave (sleep) awaiting resurrection, it's all throughout the bible ... sleep, asleep, slept with their fathers

The Jews of old had errors in some of their teachings ... the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah ... the Jews were wrong a lot. (imperfect just like we are)

What does Paul say?

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Luke 8

51And when he (Jesus) came to the house, he allowed no one to enter with him, except Peter and John and James, and the father and mother of the child. 52And all were weeping and mourning for her, but he said, “Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping.” 53And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead.

John 11:11

11After saying these things, he (Jesus) said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,

You don't think Jesus knows the difference between death and taking naps"?

The Sadducees did not believe in resurrection, whereas the Pharisees did.

According to Josephus, the Sadducees believed that:

• There is no fate.
• God does not commit evil.
• Man has free will; "man has the free choice of good or evil".
• The soul is not immortal; there is no afterlife.
• There are no rewards or penalties after death.

Because the Sadducees were often more concerned with politics than religion, they ignored Jesus until they began to fear He might bring unwanted Roman attention and upset the status quo. It was at that point that the Sadducees and Pharisees set aside their differences, united, and conspired to put Christ to death (John 11:48–50; Mark 14:53; 15:1).

The Pharisees occupied a prominent position in the synagogue during Jesus’ day. They viewed themselves as the most righteous, the best, the holiest, and the leaders of the people. They took the extensive laws of the Old Testament covenant and multiplied them and made them ridiculously specific. Their entire lives revolved around proving to themselves, to God, and to the people just how great they were because of how they kept the externalities of the law according to how they themselves had written it. As Jesus said in Mark 7:6-7, “THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.”

These were Jews ... and they where in error with some of their beliefs.

Both the Sadducees and Pharisees were in error in some of their teachings ... we are to follow Christ's teachings ... not the Jews ... His teachings through the twelve and through the prophets. Yes the twelve were Jews who became Christians (followers of Christ) ... and they adhered to Christs teachings totally as they learned from Him ... and not wholly to those of the Sadducees and Pharisees ... both groups had errors in their teachings. The apostles followed Christ.

We have the history of mankind in the bible (centering on mostly the experiences of the Jews) and are to learn from their experiences (both good and bad) and that is what the teachings of Jesus and the twelve does ... shows us where they (Sadducees/Pharisees/Jews of old) "got it wrong" or when they "got it right".

The apostles were learning from Jesus as well ... and yes ... they made mistakes also (misunderstood at times) as well ... but Jesus corrected them when necessary and those corrections are documented in His Word as Jesus taught them ... and we read many times when He does that. No error in His Word .... He corrected all of the errors/misunderstandings ... His Word is sure!

It's all about the teachings of Jesus (not the Jews) ... and Jesus IS God in the entire bible what Jesus taught throughout history.

John 5:37
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Back to the OP .... and yes quite likely they did not understand at the time when one dies they sleep in the grave until resurrection and Jesus corrected them on that point ... or least-wise affirmed to them that yes all are asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection.

Lazarus is asleep .... Lazarus is dead. Jesus knows the difference between death and "taking a nap" and He calls earthly death sleep ... because all will be resurrected either in the 1st or the second resurrection, when He returns.

Ecclesiastes 9:5

5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. 6Their love, their hate, and their envy have already vanished, and they will never again have a share in all that is done under the sun.

eleos1954 said:

Jesus did teach all go to the grave (sleep) awaiting resurrection, it's all throughout the bible ... sleep, asleep, slept with their fathers
The Jews of old had errors in some of their teachings ... the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah ... the Jews were wrong a lot. (imperfect just like we are)
What does Paul say?
1 Thessalonians 4
The Return of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Luke 8
51And when he (Jesus) came to the house, he allowed no one to enter with him, except Peter and John and James, and the father and mother of the child. 52And all were weeping and mourning for her, but he said, “Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping.” 53And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead.
John 11:11
11After saying these things, he (Jesus) said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” 12The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. 14Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died,
You don't think Jesus knows the difference between death and taking naps"?
The Sadducees did not believe in resurrection, whereas the Pharisees did.
According to Josephus, the Sadducees believed that:
There is no fate.

• God does not commit evil.
• Man has free will; "man has the free choice of good or evil".
• The soul is not immortal; there is no afterlife.
• There are no rewards or penalties after death.

Because the Sadducees were often more concerned with politics than religion, they ignored Jesus until they began to fear He might bring unwanted Roman attention and upset the status quo. It was at that point that the Sadducees and Pharisees set aside their differences, united, and conspired to put Christ to death (John 11:48–50; Mark 14:53; 15:1).
The Pharisees occupied a prominent position in the synagogue during Jesus’ day. They viewed themselves as the most righteous, the best, the holiest, and the leaders of the people. They took the extensive laws of the Old Testament covenant and multiplied them and made them ridiculously specific. Their entire lives revolved around proving to themselves, to God, and to the people just how great they were because of how they kept the externalities of the law according to how they themselves had written it. As Jesus said in Mark 7:6-7, “THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.”
These were Jews ... and they where in error with some of their beliefs.
Both the Sadducees and Pharisees were in error in some of their teachings ... we are to follow Christ's teachings ... not the Jews ... His teachings through the twelve and through the prophets. Yes the twelve were Jews who became Christians (followers of Christ) ... and they adhered to Christs teachings totally as they learned from Him ... and not wholly to those of the Sadducees and Pharisees ... both groups had errors in their teachings. The apostles followed Christ.
We have the history of mankind in the bible (centering on mostly the experiences of the Jews) and are to learn from their experiences (both good and bad) and that is what the teachings of Jesus and the twelve does ... shows us where they (Sadducees/Pharisees/Jews of old) "got it wrong" or when they "got it right".
The apostles were learning from Jesus as well ... and yes ... they made mistakes also (misunderstood at times) as well ... but Jesus corrected them when necessary and those corrections are documented in His Word as Jesus taught them ... and we read many times when He does that. No error in His Word .... He corrected all of the errors/misunderstandings ... His Word is sure!
It's all about the teachings of Jesus (not the Jews) ... and Jesus IS God in the entire bible what Jesus taught throughout history.
John 5:37
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Back to the OP .... and yes quite likely they did not understand at the time when one dies they sleep in the grave until resurrection and Jesus corrected them on that point ... or least-wise affirmed to them that yes all are asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection.
Lazarus is asleep .... Lazarus is dead. Jesus knows the difference between death and "taking a nap" and He calls earthly death sleep ... because all will be resurrected either in the 1st or the second resurrection, when He returns.
Ecclesiastes 9:55 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. 6Their love, their hate, and their envy have already vanished, and they will never again have a share in all that is done under the sun.

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Interesting narrative unfortunate that it does not address anything in my post. I will extend you the same courtesy you extended me.

Skidder said:

HELL IS NOT A SECRET TO BE KEPT

Never thought I’d see the day when the western church would abandon the doctrine of hell. But it appears the ecumenical spirit of this world is gaining a strong foothold when it comes to preaching the consequences of choosing one’s sin over the free gift of life in Christ Jesus. This is a false spirit that will often portray bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter: “We need to be positive, not negative'', “It’s God’s to judge”, '' tolerance”, '' “unity”, “diversity”, “love not hate”, etc… statements like these are often used to masquerade the subtle removal of the doctrine of hell. And for those blinded by this spirit they will never question these teachers for fear they might be branded as “judgmental”. But for those who have been forgiven much, the truth of what Christ died for is worth far more than the persecution that accompanies standing up for that truth. A truth that Jesus must have thought was rather important since He describes this “negative” place throughout the gospels with several direct references, parables, and analogies.

Yes, Jesus mentions hell quite often. So does this mean Jesus preached “negativity”? YES, and for good reason! Hell is negative! The most negative outcome of a single choice throughout eternity! When God offered His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the world He did so according to His love, a love that also includes our free will. A single consequential choice by every human being that reverberates throughout eternity. A choice between two options with no strings attached.

God has placed on the table a free gift for every human being. A free gift of life that requires no effort whatsoever by the individual, only a choice. Will they choose life or death? One would think this would be a no-brainer, but because of man’s love for sin most will reject putting their faith in Christ (God’s salvation) because their sin is more precious to them than the truth. What do I mean by this? God will not be mocked there is no sin IN CHRIST, and there is no way to pack it up in a suitcase and take it with you. When a person puts their faith in Christ they do so forsaking the very thing that Christ died for… OUR SINS. They come to Him with open arms knowing that He is the only way unto life! If their sin is more precious to them than eternal life they will not choose Christ. The very reason there will be no innocence in hell, because they knowingly made that choice.

When the Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh at Pentecost He came with a relentless tenacity to convict every individual of this choice. He convicts the world of sin because of their unbelief in Christ, so THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE! And believe me I’ve heard a plethora of excuses to why people reject Christ, but inside they are not fooling anyone because God’s Spirit continually knocks on the door of their heart; and the more they reject Him, the harder their heart becomes!

John 16:8-9
And when He has come, HE WILL CONVICT THE WORLD OF SIN, and of righteousness, and of judgment: OF SIN, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN ME;

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

So yes, there is a consequence for rejecting the free gift of life in Christ Jesus, and that CHOICE is called HELL. This is not a "peaceful place of slumber", or a "fictional place" as some have reported, but an extreme negative place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the worm never dies! A destination by no means that could ever touch those who CHOOSE LIFE, but only those who CHOOSE THE PENALTY OF SIN OVER THE ONE WHO TOOK THAT PENALTY! So let us not be deceived! We are not of those who keep this awful place a secret, but of those who LOVE and CARE enough to tell the TRUTH! “His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with UNQUENCHABLE FIRE.”-Matt 3:12

So let us not be poisoned by the lies of our enemy that somehow God has changed into an ecumenical God. He is righteous and Holy and never changes! God gave His Son as a sacrifice for our sins! So by faith in Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins!! But for those who continually reject God's peace offering unto death? They will surely die in their sins!

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the WRATH of God abides on him.”

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Acts 16:31
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved

Grace and Peace….

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Matthew 25:31-46 King James Version
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

dqhall said:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Click to expand...

Two points. As the original punishment was removal from the tree of life, thus death, that same punishment will continue. Everlasting death. Second: If the righteous go into life eternal as a reward, why would the unrighteous also be rewarded with life ?

That verse says it all.

Skidder said:

HELL IS NOT A SECRET TO BE KEPT

Never thought I’d see the day when the western church would abandon the doctrine of hell. But it appears the ecumenical spirit of this world is gaining a strong foothold when it comes to preaching the consequences of choosing one’s sin over the free gift of life in Christ Jesus. This is a false spirit that will often portray bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter: “We need to be positive, not negative'', “It’s God’s to judge”, '' tolerance”, '' “unity”, “diversity”, “love not hate”, etc… statements like these are often used to masquerade the subtle removal of the doctrine of hell. And for those blinded by this spirit they will never question these teachers for fear they might be branded as “judgmental”. But for those who have been forgiven much, the truth of what Christ died for is worth far more than the persecution that accompanies standing up for that truth. A truth that Jesus must have thought was rather important since He describes this “negative” place throughout the gospels with several direct references, parables, and analogies.

Yes, Jesus mentions hell quite often. So does this mean Jesus preached “negativity”? YES, and for good reason! Hell is negative! The most negative outcome of a single choice throughout eternity! When God offered His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the world He did so according to His love, a love that also includes our free will. A single consequential choice by every human being that reverberates throughout eternity. A choice between two options with no strings attached.

God has placed on the table a free gift for every human being. A free gift of life that requires no effort whatsoever by the individual, only a choice. Will they choose life or death? One would think this would be a no-brainer, but because of man’s love for sin most will reject putting their faith in Christ (God’s salvation) because their sin is more precious to them than the truth. What do I mean by this? God will not be mocked there is no sin IN CHRIST, and there is no way to pack it up in a suitcase and take it with you. When a person puts their faith in Christ they do so forsaking the very thing that Christ died for… OUR SINS. They come to Him with open arms knowing that He is the only way unto life! If their sin is more precious to them than eternal life they will not choose Christ. The very reason there will be no innocence in hell, because they knowingly made that choice.

When the Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh at Pentecost He came with a relentless tenacity to convict every individual of this choice. He convicts the world of sin because of their unbelief in Christ, so THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE! And believe me I’ve heard a plethora of excuses to why people reject Christ, but inside they are not fooling anyone because God’s Spirit continually knocks on the door of their heart; and the more they reject Him, the harder their heart becomes!

John 16:8-9
And when He has come, HE WILL CONVICT THE WORLD OF SIN, and of righteousness, and of judgment: OF SIN, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN ME;

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

So yes, there is a consequence for rejecting the free gift of life in Christ Jesus, and that CHOICE is called HELL. This is not a "peaceful place of slumber", or a "fictional place" as some have reported, but an extreme negative place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the worm never dies! A destination by no means that could ever touch those who CHOOSE LIFE, but only those who CHOOSE THE PENALTY OF SIN OVER THE ONE WHO TOOK THAT PENALTY! So let us not be deceived! We are not of those who keep this awful place a secret, but of those who LOVE and CARE enough to tell the TRUTH! “His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with UNQUENCHABLE FIRE.”-Matt 3:12

So let us not be poisoned by the lies of our enemy that somehow God has changed into an ecumenical God. He is righteous and Holy and never changes! God gave His Son as a sacrifice for our sins! So by faith in Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins!! But for those who continually reject God's peace offering unto death? They will surely die in their sins!

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the WRATH of God abides on him.”

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Acts 16:31
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved

Grace and Peace….

Click to expand...

There's no question that God's Word teaches the existence of hell, a spiritual place with eternal separation from God. Churches are too timid. They don't preach and teach about it because we tend to be people pleasers who are afraid to offend people. We should preach it when the Bible text say so.

timothyu said:

Two points. As the original punishment was removal from the tree of life, thus death, that same punishment will continue. Everlasting death. Second: If the righteous go into life eternal as a reward, why would the unrighteous also be rewarded with life ?

That verse says it all.

Click to expand...

My opinion is Christ’s Father planned to support the righteous and to withdraw support from the wicked on the day of judgement. Without support the wicked will rise no more. Hell will pass away. A better world is coming.

Bruce Leiter said:

eternal separation from God

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Eternal separation is simply non-existence

Thank you.. and I do agree should be kept secret yet "the western church would abandon the doctrine of hell." 37 million Churches. Now hell.. Jesus said no one gets to the Father but by through Him. And He said many will try to get in.. but won't for He is the only way in. There is nothing written we can do what we want believe any way we want and we all get to be with the Father. To say 'Hell" is not written in many of the Jewish text is correct yet "rabbinic commentaries assume that means they’re all going straight to hell."

We can get stuck on the word.. but to be with out the Father forever... use any word you want. It is a fact a place was made for Satan and his angels. Its true Satan and his angels will be tossed in the fire and all those that follow him. We some how think we are more important then angels. That God will treat us better. God did not spare His own angels. They can not say ..oops sorry.. I made a mistake. They can not repent. We get grace mercy because we are blind. We have never been with Him in all his glory and power.. they were and they choose to leave.

But we can learn of Him and say nope I don't Him. We can hear the truth and reject it. Please.. there are many words we use today that are no where in the word of God yet.. are 100% truth. Look how God treated some in the OT. Noah.. what those on the earth where every thought was evil. Lot.. those cities.. we think what about those that died? There is coming a judgement day for all. The books will be open. BOOKS. What happens to those not written? Did not Christ say.. don't rejoice that demons are subject to you but that your names are written in heaven<----thats what matters.

And praise GOD glory to JESUS..we should speak this warn them.

timothyu said:

Two points. As the original punishment was removal from the tree of life, thus death, that same punishment will continue. Everlasting death. Second: If the righteous go into life eternal as a reward, why would the unrighteous also be rewarded with life ?
That verse says it all.

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…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..The jews considered this passage to be factual.
…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

timothyu said:

Eternal separation is simply non-existence

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See my post immediately above to Timothyu.

Shrewd Manager said:

Is hell mentioned in the catalogue of God's very good creation in Genesis? No. Is it mentioned anywhere in the Torah? Uh-uh. The Tanakh? Nugatory. In the OT at all? Negative. And what about the Gospels and epistles? We found Hades, Sheol, Gehenna, Tartaroo, the darkness and the abussos sir, but no hell. And Revelation? Will the lake of fire do boss, we're running out of verses?

Mighty well-kept secret, can't find it anywhere in scripture!

Hey, what's the difference between Balaam's talking donkey and Hell? You can find the donkey in scripture.

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Isaiah 33:14 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
14 The sinners in Zion are afraid. Those who do wrong shake with fear. They say, “Can any of us live through this fire that destroys? Who can live near this fire that burns forever?

Isaiah 66:22-24 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

22 The Lord says, “I will make a new world—new heavens and a new earth—that will last forever. In the same way, your names and your children will always be with me. 23 Everyone will come to worship me on every worship day; they will come every Sabbath and every first day of the month. This is what I, the Lord, have said.

24 “Whoever goes out of the city will see the dead bodies of those who sinned against me. The worms eating those bodies will never die, and the fires burning them will never go out. It will be horrible to anyone who sees it.”

Matthew 25:31-46 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
31 “The Son of Man will come again with divine greatness, and all his angels will come with him. He will sit as king on his great and glorious throne. 32 All the people of the world will be gathered before him. Then he will separate everyone into two groups. It will be like a shepherd separating his sheep from his goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the king will say to the godly people on his right, ‘Come, my Father has great blessings for you. The kingdom he promised is now yours. It has been prepared for you since the world was made. 35 It is yours because when I was hungry, you gave me food to eat. When I was thirsty, you gave me something to drink. When I had no place to stay, you welcomed me into your home. 36 When I was without clothes, you gave me something to wear. When I was sick, you cared for me. When I was in prison, you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the godly people will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you food? When did we see you thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you with no place to stay and welcome you into our home? When did we see you without clothes and give you something to wear? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and care for you?’

40 “Then the king will answer, ‘The truth is, anything you did for any of my people here,[a] you also did for me.’

41 “Then the king will say to the evil people on his left, ‘Get away from me. God has already decided that you will be punished. Go into the fire that burns forever—the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 You must go away because when I was hungry, you gave me nothing to eat. When I was thirsty, you gave me nothing to drink. 43 When I had no place to stay, you did not welcome me into your home. When I was without clothes, you gave me nothing to wear. When I was sick and in prison, you did not care for me.’

44 “Then those people will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty? When did we see you without a place to stay? Or when did we see you without clothes or sick or in prison? When did we see any of this and not help you?’

45 “The king will answer, ‘The truth is, anything you refused to do for any of my people here, you refused to do for me.’

46 “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. But the godly people will go and enjoy eternal life.”

Mark 9:42-48 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

42 “If one of these little children believes in me, and someone causes that child to sin, it will be very bad for that person. It would be better for them to have a millstone tied around their neck and be drowned in the sea. 43 If your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to lose part of your body and have eternal life than to have two hands and go to hell. There the fire never stops. 44 [a] 45 If your foot makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to lose part of your body and have eternal life than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 46 47 If your eye makes you sin, take it out. It is better for you to have only one eye and enter God’s kingdom than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell. 48 The worms that eat the people in hell never die. The fire there is never stopped.



Jude 7 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
7 Also, remember the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and the other towns around them. Like those angels they were full of sexual sin and involved themselves in sexual relations that are wrong. And they suffer the punishment of eternal fire, an example for us to see.

Revelation 20:10 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
10 And he (the one who tricked these people) was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur with the beast and the false prophet. There they would be tortured day and night forever and ever.


Revelation 20:14-15 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
14 And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

"In later times the belief in a universal Resurrection became general. "All men as they are born and die are to rise again," says Eliezer ben Ḳappar (Abotiv.). The Resurrection will occur at the close of the Messianic era (Enoch, xcviii. 10). Death will befall the Messiah after his four hundred years' reign, and all mankind and the world will lapse into primeval silence for seven days, after which the renewed earth will give forth its dead and God will judge the world and assign the evil-doers to the pit of hell and the righteous to paradise, which is on the opposite side (II Esd. vii. 26-36). All evildoers meet with everlasting punishment. It was a matter of dispute between the Shammaite R. Eliezer and the Hillelite R. Joshua whether the righteous among the heathen had a share in the future world or not (Tosef., Sanh. xiii. 2), the dispute hinging on the verse "the wicked shall return to Sheol, and all the Gentiles that forget God" (Ps. ix. 18 [A. V. 17], Hebr.). The doctrine "All Israelites have a share in the world to come" (Sanh. xi. 1) is based upon Isa. Ix. 21: "Thy people, all of them righteous, shall inherit the land" (Hebr.). At first resurrection was regarded as a miraculous boon granted only to the righteous (Test. Patr., Simeon, 6; Luke xiv. 14), but afterward it was considered to be universal in application and connected with the Last Judgment (Slavonic Enoch, lxvi. 5; comp. second blessing of the "Shemoneh 'Esreh"). Whether the process of the formation of the body at the Resurrection is the same as at birth is a matter of dispute between the Hillelites and Shammaites (Gen. R. xiv.; Lev. R. xiv.). For the state of the soul during the death of the body see Immortality and Soul."

"In the earliest part of the Ethiopic Book of Enoch (i.-xxxvi.) there is a great advance on the conceptions of Daniel, although the book is of earlier date. Ch. xxii. contains an elaborate description of Sheol, telling how it is divided into four parts, two of which receive two classes of righteous; the others, two classes of wicked. Of these, three classes are to experience a resurrection. One class of the wicked has been judged and has received its punishment. In H Maccabees the belief that all Israelites will be resurrected finds expression (comp. vi. 26, vii. 9-36, and xiv. 46). In the next Enoch apocalypse (Ethiopic Enoch, lxxxiii.-xc.), composed a few years after Daniel, it was thought that only the righteous Israelites would experience a resurrection. That was to be a bodily resurrection, and the body was to be subsequently transformed. This writer realized that the earth was not a fit place for Yhwh's permanent kingdom, and so the conception of a heavenly Jerusalem appears, of which the earthly Jerusalem city is the prototype.
RESURRECTION - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Isaiah 14:9-17 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.
12 You were like the morning star,
but you have fallen from the sky.
In the past, all the nations on earth bowed down before you,
but now you have been cut down.
13 You always told yourself,
“I will go to the skies above.
I will put my throne above God’s stars.
I will sit on Zaphon, the holy mountain where the gods meet.
14 I will go up to the altar above the tops of the clouds.
I will be like God Most High.”

15 But that did not happen.
You were brought down to the deep pit—Sheol, the place of death.
16 People will come to look at your dead body.
They will think about you and say,
“Is this the same man
who caused great fear in all the kingdoms on earth,
17 who destroyed cities
and turned the land into a desert,
who captured people in war
and would not let them go home?”

timothyu said:

Two points. As the original punishment was removal from the tree of life, thus death, that same punishment will continue. Everlasting death. Second: If the righteous go into life eternal as a reward, why would the unrighteous also be rewarded with life ?

That verse says it all.

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I cor 15, everyone who is resurrected gets a body that can not be destroyed by fire.

timothyu said:

Two points. As the original punishment was removal from the tree of life, thus death, that same punishment will continue. Everlasting death. Second: If the righteous go into life eternal as a reward, why would the unrighteous also be rewarded with life ?

That verse says it all.

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Daniel 12:1-2 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
12 “Daniel, at that time the great prince Michael will stand up. Michael is in charge of your people. There will be a time of much trouble, the worst time since nations have been on earth. But Daniel, at that time every one of your people whose name is found written in the book of life will be saved. 2 There are many who are dead and buried.[a] Some of them will wake up and live forever, but others will wake up to shame and disgrace forever.

Matthew 25:46 Good News Translation (GNT)
46 These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life.”

1 Corinthians 15:42 Good News Translation (GNT)
42 This is how it will be when the dead are raised to life. When the body is buried, it is mortal; when raised, it will be immortal.

Like music and poetry, many try and make it fit what they want it to say, rather than letting it speak for itself.

My most reused quote when talking about anything relating to doctrine;

"All of Christianity is one big balancing act."

That's probably why it takes so much discipline to be a follower of Christ. It's easy to go from one extreme to the other--being a bible-thumping fire-and-brimstone preaching authoritarian in the Church, or being a 'good vibes only' Christian motivational speaker who sells a watered-down version of Christianity like it was some health tonic on late-night television. The thing is, neither of them is beneficial to anyone.

All things in moderation. We are to be loving and spread the good news of the Gospel, but we also owe it to the lost to make known the consequences of rejecting Christ. Many souls are dependant on The Great Commission.

theoneandonlypencil said:

Many souls are dependant on The Great Commission.

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Jesus said to spread the Gospel of the Kingdom yes, but he summed things up by saying those who stick to the ways of this world have their only reward here. If that is good enough for some people then so be it. Not everyone is Kingdom bound. They obviously have no interest in seeking God or anything outside themselves and only they and God can change that. If God is in the picture they will long for something more. We can't push God on anyone but the church did find it convenient to keep parishioners in line and could justify itself for attacking others as them being hell bound anyway

Skidder said:

HELL IS NOT A SECRET TO BE KEPT

Never thought I’d see the day when the western church would abandon the doctrine of hell. But it appears the ecumenical spirit of this world is gaining a strong foothold when it comes to preaching the consequences of choosing one’s sin over the free gift of life in Christ Jesus. This is a false spirit that will often portray bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter: “We need to be positive, not negative'', “It’s God’s to judge”, '' tolerance”, '' “unity”, “diversity”, “love not hate”, etc… statements like these are often used to masquerade the subtle removal of the doctrine of hell. And for those blinded by this spirit they will never question these teachers for fear they might be branded as “judgmental”. But for those who have been forgiven much, the truth of what Christ died for is worth far more than the persecution that accompanies standing up for that truth. A truth that Jesus must have thought was rather important since He describes this “negative” place throughout the gospels with several direct references, parables, and analogies.

Yes, Jesus mentions hell quite often. So does this mean Jesus preached “negativity”? YES, and for good reason! Hell is negative! The most negative outcome of a single choice throughout eternity! When God offered His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the world He did so according to His love, a love that also includes our free will. A single consequential choice by every human being that reverberates throughout eternity. A choice between two options with no strings attached.

God has placed on the table a free gift for every human being. A free gift of life that requires no effort whatsoever by the individual, only a choice. Will they choose life or death? One would think this would be a no-brainer, but because of man’s love for sin most will reject putting their faith in Christ (God’s salvation) because their sin is more precious to them than the truth. What do I mean by this? God will not be mocked there is no sin IN CHRIST, and there is no way to pack it up in a suitcase and take it with you. When a person puts their faith in Christ they do so forsaking the very thing that Christ died for… OUR SINS. They come to Him with open arms knowing that He is the only way unto life! If their sin is more precious to them than eternal life they will not choose Christ. The very reason there will be no innocence in hell, because they knowingly made that choice.

When the Holy Spirit was poured out on all flesh at Pentecost He came with a relentless tenacity to convict every individual of this choice. He convicts the world of sin because of their unbelief in Christ, so THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE! And believe me I’ve heard a plethora of excuses to why people reject Christ, but inside they are not fooling anyone because God’s Spirit continually knocks on the door of their heart; and the more they reject Him, the harder their heart becomes!

John 16:8-9
And when He has come, HE WILL CONVICT THE WORLD OF SIN, and of righteousness, and of judgment: OF SIN, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN ME;

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

So yes, there is a consequence for rejecting the free gift of life in Christ Jesus, and that CHOICE is called HELL. This is not a "peaceful place of slumber", or a "fictional place" as some have reported, but an extreme negative place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the worm never dies! A destination by no means that could ever touch those who CHOOSE LIFE, but only those who CHOOSE THE PENALTY OF SIN OVER THE ONE WHO TOOK THAT PENALTY! So let us not be deceived! We are not of those who keep this awful place a secret, but of those who LOVE and CARE enough to tell the TRUTH! “His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with UNQUENCHABLE FIRE.”-Matt 3:12

So let us not be poisoned by the lies of our enemy that somehow God has changed into an ecumenical God. He is righteous and Holy and never changes! God gave His Son as a sacrifice for our sins! So by faith in Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins!! But for those who continually reject God's peace offering unto death? They will surely die in their sins!

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the WRATH of God abides on him.”

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Acts 16:31
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved

Grace and Peace….

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Yes. I was reading an article by a pastor who stopped preaching heaven and hell. People stopped getting saved. When he went back to preaching hell, people started to get saved. Since most churches have many unbelievers attending, a regular evangelistic meeting is a good policy. That's assuming that the pastor is born again, not a given even in evangelical circles.

The problem is people thinking they can judge other humans in a way or in ways that only God can...

And, also, do you believe the fire or fires, or the weeping and gnashing of teeth, or the "eternal" torment is to be taken very literally just as it is literally described to us...? or not...?

Cause I can guarantee you/it/they are not...?

I could tell you what I think it "really is" if you really want me to, and it's still very, very "scary" to me...?

I wonder if people who talk or preach or teach a lot about hell, and a very literal hell, so as to scare the hell out of other people, is not actually a trap to set them all up for going to hell...?

Anyway, it's food for thought anyway...

It would certainly fit with my theory on hell...

God Bless!