Hell and free will

[Tapout]

I was raised in a Christian home and all that, but no matter what, I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to this. This has been my biggest issue with christianity to date.

If God is all knowing, he knew when he created the earth that Adam and Eve would ultimately seperate themselves from him with the original sin. Ultimately, God would have known then, the name of every person who would choose him and who would reject him in the end.

If this is true, then why would he do this to begin with? Ultimately millions(or billions) of souls would end up with him in paradise, but what of all the souls that will be totured for the rest of eternity? I have a hard time believing that God is merciful if he knew the net result of what he was doing would cause the suffering of billions.

My question is this, if God knows everything that will happen before it does, and knows all the choices we will make, how is it that we have free will? I'm rambling a little bit, but I just can't wrap my head around this and never have been able to. I'm not asking this in a hostile way, so please don't take it as that. This is an answer I've been searching for most of my life.

 

[039]

Please forgive me for not answering your questions myself on this one: I usually sit and think on it a while before I respond, but tonight isn't very good for me and it's late. I'm sorry, I'll come back in the morning. Here's a few links to answer your questions some what:

Why would God create a person destined to go to hell?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/destined.html

Why wouldn't God want Adam and Eve to have knowledge of good evil?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/tree.html

A loving God would not send billions of people to hell, would he?

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/hell.html

Those articles aren't exactly perfect, but... I'm sure you'll be getting answers from my brothers and sisters soon enough.

 

[Ailanthus]

True, God does know who will choose Him and who will reject Him. Amazingly, he knew this before we were born. However, the fact that God knows does not impact our free will. God did not create anyone with the intention of sending them to hell. We make the choice to accept or reject, but He already knows the path we will choose. I know, it's very hard for one to wrap their mind around this, but try to understand that the laws of time do not restrain God; he is the Alpha and Omega; He created the beginning and He knows the end. God wants all to seek Him. He wants for none to perish in Hell seperated from Him, but, at the same time, He is Holy and Just, and unforunately, Hell is the punishment for those who choose to reject Him.

 

[Bluewing]

Hey Tapout,

"My question is this, if God knows everything that will happen before it does, and knows all the choices we will make, how is it that we have free will? I'm rambling a little bit, but I just can't wrap my head around this and never have been able to. I'm not asking this in a hostile way, so please don't take it as that. This is an answer I've been searching for most of my life."

It is a difficult question to answer because I believe the answer delves beyond our physical universe and time into eternity, and of that we have no knowledge or understanding. I believe that God knows who will accept and who will reject His Son with His promise of salvation and the abundant life in the hope of living their life their own way, independent of God and His boundaries.

But how is this possible? Even more so, does this imply fatalism or predestination? I believe that the answer to these questions lie in the fact that since God is the creator of time, He is then outside of time. As a consequence of this, He is able to see past, present, and future simultaneously. Without making this sound too complicated, if God is not restricted to existence in the present, our present, then the future is also known to God because He indwells in the future as well as the present, and our past. God is not bound or restricted by time, which means that our future choices, as free as they are, are simply known to Him.

I'm sorry if that didn't make an overly large amount of sense, but I am trying to describe and explain something that I myself do not understand and could never comprehend this side of eternity as existing in a physical universe bound by time makes trying to think about eternity (where there is no time) impossible and difficult at best.

By the use of an analogy, knowing that something will happen does not follow that we are causing that thing to happen. The most useful example is that I know the sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing the sun to rise tomorrow, nor am I preventing it from not rising, by knowing that it will happen. The same is true if you offer a child chocolate or pumpkin ... you know that they will go for the chocolate, yet you knowing that are not impacting on their choice to take the pumpkin.

God knows what we will choose long before we are even born, yet it should be noted that just because He knows the course of our lives, it does not negate our free-will to live them.

There was another thread very recently on the topic of hell, I suggest that you look at that for how a God of love and eternal hell can co-exist.

 

[039]

I have nothing to add to what was already posted.

 

[tapero]

I was raised in a Christian home and all that, but no matter what, I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to this. This has been my biggest issue with christianity to date.

If God is all knowing, he knew when he created the earth that Adam and Eve would ultimately seperate themselves from him with the original sin. Ultimately, God would have known then, the name of every person who would choose him and who would reject him in the end.

If this is true, then why would he do this to begin with? Ultimately millions(or billions) of souls would end up with him in paradise, but what of all the souls that will be totured for the rest of eternity? I have a hard time believing that God is merciful if he knew the net result of what he was doing would cause the suffering of billions.

My question is this, if God knows everything that will happen before it does, and knows all the choices we will make, how is it that we have free will? I'm rambling a little bit, but I just can't wrap my head around this and never have been able to. I'm not asking this in a hostile way, so please don't take it as that. This is an answer I've been searching for most of my life.

I don't believe that God preordained all things. I think God created and creation responded in the way the , satan, fallen angels and Adam and Eve did.

So, God responded in the way he did with Israel. Israel for the most part denied God and so Jesus came, preaching to the Jews. The Jews for the most part rejected Jesus, so Paul came preaching to the Gentiles.

We all have complete free will to know Christ. However, for myself, I have to say, I have no clue in understanding how God called me, nor what made me hear and believe, it was a miracle indeed.

What I'm trying to say there is, why hadn't I heard before I was 33 years old? I'm the same person, a new creation in Christ, but why had I never believed before. I can't explain it. Can't explain how I heard the call and believed.

Have a friend heard the gospel all her life, but it wasn't until her 30s that she actually came to Christ, as if it were the first time she were hearing the gospel.

Now the book of Revelation and some of the other prophetic books do seem to be preordained. In other words those things are going to happen as written in the bible.

We have complete free will.

The bible is clear that God wishes that none perish.

As far as our lives go, we walk minute by minute with God, who doesn't force us on the narrow path, but urges us to it.

God bless,
tapero

 

[Tapout]

Thank you all for your replies, I'm still processing a lot of what I read. I agree with a poster above, that time is a concept or restraint that only binds us and not God.

Despite this, I still don't understand how we can claim to have free will under these circumstances. God created man and ultimately he knew who would end up rejecting him and who would end up with him in paradise. Even if we have free will, when we are born there's no changing what God already knows we will do. I didn't choose to exist, he set in motion what cause me to exist and no matter what I do, ultimately I will do what he already knows.

I'm talking in circles a bit, I guess I'm a little confused about the whole thing.

 

[039]

Ah, but it wasn't entirely him. You also are a product of the choice of others. Ultimately, yes, you will do what he knows. If there was some way for me to reach into the future and get a video tape of what you did today and watch it, I would know what you would do later, but you can't blame me for knowing what you would do, especially if I respect your decision and the following consquences. It's confusing because as humans, we can hardly see beyond our own perception. For example: I can hardly see how I'm going to get to bed tonight with such a nagging toothache. But, ultimately, we don't need to understand how every single atom in the world works or how exactly things will end up, we were given that which we could handle and that which was important.

 

[Roadstar]

I could make promises to my wife of what, I intend to do for her at some point, until she really loves me. or just says she does.

OR

If I work hard and give my wife a good husband my wife might, decide in her free will, to love me.

Our GOD is a jealous God of sorts. He would rather it be our choice, our decision, to love and accept him.
You can choose either way. However, like if you said something when you were a child such as, "why ask mom, I know what she is going to say", he knows the choice we are going to end up making.

The Book of Joshua, Chapter 24 Verse 15 says "Now if you are unwilling to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served in the region beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

I don't know if this helps or not, but give it a try.

Blessings,
Bryan

 

[Aceybee]

There is another thing you could take into consideration..
Way back when Satan made the choice not to follow God, believing that he was unfair, and unjust, and had impossible standards, 1/3 of heavens angels followed him. This is not entirely about us, because they are all watching, and we are the ones who prove whether God is fair or not. If he stepped in in a way that could influence us, he would be proving Satans point.
Have you ever watched a movie, where you could see the character was walking into danger? You feel like screaming at the character "NO! Don't do that, its not safe" <or other expression of anxiety related warning>. Just because you know what it going to happen, does that mean the character can't walk away, because you already know whats going to happen? It has very little to do with you, and everything to do with the character.. You can't jump in and take the danger away, even though you see it coming. Now the thing is God could take it away, but again, he would be proving satans point.
My knowledge can't change your behaviour.. So how is God's knowledge supposed to control your behaviour when you don't know what he knows, and he's not going to step in?
Having said all that, We've only got human minds, so some things will probably never really make sense in this life!

I hope you find some answers!

 

[Deren]

I was raised in a Christian home and all that, but no matter what, I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to this. This has been my biggest issue with christianity to date.

If God is all knowing, he knew when he created the earth that Adam and Eve would ultimately seperate themselves from him with the original sin. Ultimately, God would have known then, the name of every person who would choose him and who would reject him in the end.

If this is true, then why would he do this to begin with? Ultimately millions(or billions) of souls would end up with him in paradise, but what of all the souls that will be totured for the rest of eternity? I have a hard time believing that God is merciful if he knew the net result of what he was doing would cause the suffering of billions.

My question is this, if God knows everything that will happen before it does, and knows all the choices we will make, how is it that we have free will? I'm rambling a little bit, but I just can't wrap my head around this and never have been able to. I'm not asking this in a hostile way, so please don't take it as that. This is an answer I've been searching for most of my life.

There are two problems with your question. One, you're ignoring what the purpose of creation was supposed to be all about. Two, free will has nothing to do with what God knows, to which I refer back to problem #1.

To solve your problems stop and ask yourself: Why did God create anything?

Then, if you figure that one out, ask yourself: If humans had the free will, in the beginning, to fulfill the reason for God's creation, and humans blew it by rebelling against God, and falling into sin, then just why kind of "free will" will everyone else have afterward?

I think anyone fairly knowledgeable of what the Bible says could just out-in-out explain the answers to the questions to you, but sometimes we learn best when we stop to think through the questions and answer them ourselves.

 

[Bluewing]

Hi Tapout,

"Even if we have free will, when we are born there's no changing what God already knows we will do."

I guess the whole point of the analogies that I provided was to show you that just because even we know that something will happen, it doesn't necessarily follow logically that we caused or prevented it.

I Googled this topic last night and while I was searching for ideas to help me answer your question, I came across a response titled Does Omniscience Contradict Free Will? By Come Reason Ministries. Hopefully this article may be able to show you the reasoning behind the sceptic's argument and how it is flawed more effectively than what I had attempted to do.

 

[Atlantians]

I was raised in a Christian home and all that, but no matter what, I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to this. This has been my biggest issue with christianity to date.

If God is all knowing, he knew when he created the earth that Adam and Eve would ultimately seperate themselves from him with the original sin. Ultimately, God would have known then, the name of every person who would choose him and who would reject him in the end.

Yep.

If this is true, then why would he do this to begin with? Ultimately millions(or billions) of souls would end up with him in paradise, but what of all the souls that will be totured for the rest of eternity? I have a hard time believing that God is merciful if he knew the net result of what he was doing would cause the suffering of billions.

Good question.
I would say one necesitates the other.

God designed us. We worked the way we were supposed to, but part of that was the ability to chose.

Therefore, yes His actions "indirectly" cause the suffering of Billions, but each of those many people had the individual choice to, or not to accept God's plan.

They, like broken pots loved by the Potter, are saved in eternal awareness of their own wrongs.

My question is this, if God knows everything that will happen before it does, and knows all the choices we will make, how is it that we have free will? I'm rambling a little bit, but I just can't wrap my head around this and never have been able to. I'm not asking this in a hostile way, so please don't take it as that. This is an answer I've been searching for most of my life.

God is outside of time.
Time has little meaning to Him.

An anology:
He "remembers" the future as He also "remembers" the past.
It has all happened, is all happening, and will all happen, all at the same time.

We have free will because God chooses not to directly force our will into allignment.
But He dous know what we will chose.

 

[Tapout]

There are two problems with your question. One, you're ignoring what the purpose of creation was supposed to be all about. Two, free will has nothing to do with what God knows, to which I refer back to problem #1.

To solve your problems stop and ask yourself: Why did God create anything?

Then, if you figure that one out, ask yourself: If humans had the free will, in the beginning, to fulfill the reason for God's creation, and humans blew it by rebelling against God, and falling into sin, then just why kind of "free will" will everyone else have afterward?

I think anyone fairly knowledgeable of what the Bible says could just out-in-out explain the answers to the questions to you, but sometimes we learn best when we stop to think through the questions and answer them ourselves.

Why did God create anything? Someone said that in a way he's trying to prove a point to Satan, that seems to me like a petty game and part of me is really turned off at the thought of having been created for such a purpose.

 

[Aceybee]

ok, if that was in referral to what I said, thats not how I meant it to come across, sorry. Its not a game or God and Satan having an argument or anything.. You were created because God wanted you in the world and because he thinks you're important. He wanted you to have a chance at living and experiencing everything that could make you happy and fulfilled..The way stuff is messed up in the world has to be left the way it is so that everyone can judge based on untampered evidence who is better at running things. The way God meant it to be was perfect with no-one having pain or misery and he certainly didn't want to destroy anyone forever, otherwise there would be no point in making them.. that would just be cruel.. God was planning to make humans and the earth before Satan got himself kicked out of heaven.. we aren't just pawns in a gigantic chess game created specially for the occasion.

 

[rocklife]

I was raised in a Christian home and all that, but no matter what, I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to this. This has been my biggest issue with christianity to date.

If God is all knowing, he knew when he created the earth that Adam and Eve would ultimately seperate themselves from him with the original sin. Ultimately, God would have known then, the name of every person who would choose him and who would reject him in the end.

If this is true, then why would he do this to begin with? Ultimately millions(or billions) of souls would end up with him in paradise, but what of all the souls that will be totured for the rest of eternity? I have a hard time believing that God is merciful if he knew the net result of what he was doing would cause the suffering of billions.

My question is this, if God knows everything that will happen before it does, and knows all the choices we will make, how is it that we have free will? I'm rambling a little bit, but I just can't wrap my head around this and never have been able to. I'm not asking this in a hostile way, so please don't take it as that. This is an answer I've been searching for most of my life.

I don't believe hell fire is torture for the rest of eternity. I believe that is a misunderstanding of scripture by many, including many church preachers unfortunately (reading the New Testament, there are many warnings about church leaders, I believe we need to take the warnings). Torturing creatures for billions and trillions of years and longer does not make any sense, even if we commit 70 or hundred years of crimes and sins, it doesn't logically work out that God is love to torture us for billions and trillions of years when He is also invisible and we are prone to sin.

I would recommend more prayerful study and bible reading about Jesus and His ways. I have found a bible preaching on the internet that expresses the way I also agree the Bible is sharing about hell, which can be found here, http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/storacle_lessons.asp the one called "Cities of Ash" click watch. I also recommend continuing in your own Bible readings and follow New Testament also. God bless your search for truth.

 

[Bondman]

I don't believe hell fire is torture for the rest of eternity. I believe that is a misunderstanding of scripture by many, including many church preachers unfortunately (reading the New Testament, there are many warnings about church leaders, I believe we need to take the warnings). Torturing creatures for billions and trillions of years and longer does not make any sense, even if we commit 70 or hundred years of crimes and sins, it doesn't logically work out that God is love to torture us for billions and trillions of years when He is also invisible and we are prone to sin.

I would recommend more prayerful study and bible reading about Jesus and His ways. I have found a bible preaching on the internet that expresses the way I also agree the Bible is sharing about hell, which can be found here, http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/storacle_lessons.asp the one called "Cities of Ash" click watch. I also recommend continuing in your own Bible readings and follow New Testament also. God bless your search for truth.

I'm not wishing to start any sort of 'debate' on this subject but it needs to be said that this move away from Scripture beliefs held by millions of Godly folk for many centuries is very upsetting. The Bible does not support this view you've mentioned, and the website you refer to I checked, and it's one where they show very clearly that you really CAN make the Bible say anything you like if you want it to. That is, error everywhere on the site.

I was engaged in a quite long thread about this on MySpace, and the proponents of this view of hell were ultimately unable to support their doctrine, and answer my Scriptural questions about it.

Sound doctrine is what we all need so we may help those outside of Christ here, and I'm thrilled to be on CF with so many Brothers and Sisters who hold to this. "Thankyou, Lord!"

- Bondman (ministering the Good News of the Gospel)

_________________​

Rest in the LORD and in HIS strength alone!​

Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength;
they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
they shall run, and not be weary;
they shall walk, and not faint.​

 

[Bondman]

TAPOUT - Firstly, your freewill will work just fine! You can choose to accept Jesus, or reject Him. God will not intefere in any way with that decision!

What God knows or doesn't is His business. Please let Him look after all of that. You truly don't need to concern yourself about it at all!!



Secondly, choosing Jesus means you live forever with God in eternity. No one ever needs to go to hell. God doesn't want that! So please make sure you don't go there. We'll help you! - anytime.



Blessings!

- Bondman (ministering the Good News of the Gospel)

_________________​

Rest in the LORD and in HIS strength alone!​

Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength;
they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
they shall run, and not be weary;
they shall walk, and not faint.​

 

[Criada]

Secondly, choosing Jesus means you live forever with God in eternity. No one ever needs to go to hell. God doesn't want that! So please make sure you don't go there. We'll help you! - anytime.

Amen!

We can never hope to understand God!
BUT I know that He is perfect love, and it is not His desire that anyone should go to hell.
That's why He sent Jesus "that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life"

Bless you

Criada