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Hechshers

ChavaK

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In the now defunct Hebrew National thread, hechshers
were discussed.
What level of hechshers do messianics rely on?
For instance, the Tri K was mentioned as not
being accepted by the frum community ( a fact
I re-verified with both of my rabbis- one Chabad
and one from an OU shul) today.
Do Messianics have hechshers they would not
rely on? How about a "K" on a box, if there
wasn't anything treif listed in the ingredients?
And how would you deal with a hechsher with a
DE on it?
Just curious:wave:
 
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GeratTzedek

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There isn't any particular certification that we value more than others.

I've only recently moved into this degree of observance of Kashrus. That I'm only buying things marked kosher is a big step up for me. The day may come when I'm pickier about WHICH cedrtification. But right now, that would be overwhelming.

Our Standards of Observance are not meant to be halakhic rulings, but do draw on halakhah. Our rabbis ask a "basic practice" of all Jews in MJ (not that it is always followed, lol) but also recommend a stricter extended practice. That said, here is a partial quote from the MJRC's website, Kashrut page. You will notice that the certificaiton issue is brought up regarding meat but not other products. Also even with meat, certification has not been made part of basic practice. THIS was controversial. There are rabbis on the council do not agree. Individual MJ's are of course free to go beyond this, to Orthodox standards. The Standards of Observance are supposed to begin introducing a minimal expectation in a community which until now hasn't had any -- the standards are NOT a statement of the ideal.
5.1 Fundamental Requirements

5.1.1 All pork products, shellfish, and food containing their elements (e.g., lard) are to be avoided.

All fruits, grains and vegetables are kosher. Fish with fins and scales are also kosher.
These basic laws of Kashrut are first enjoined in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. However, the distinction between animals that are tahor (i.e., ritually pure) and those that are not tahor is already found in the story of Noah (Genesis 7:2). While Noah and his family are permitted to eat all animals (Genesis 9:3), only those that are tahor may be offered as sacrifices (Genesis 8:20). As a priestly people set apart for Hashem from all the nations of the world, Israel is summoned to limit the animals it consumes so that its table may be analogous to the temple altar.
While many have argued that these dietary laws have hygienic value, the Torah itself provides a different rationale: "You shall be holy, for I am holy" (Leviticus 11:44; see Deuteronomy 14:2).
Peter's vision in Acts 10 suggests that the nations of the world are now being called to share in Israel's holiness, without losing their character as nations distinct from Israel. Therefore, they may now become holy, like Israel, without adopting Israel's dietary regimen. However, Acts 10 does not imply that Israel may fulfill its own particular priestly calling apart from that regimen.
5.1.2 Following Conservative halakhah, we consider swordfish and sturgeon acceptable as part of our basic practice. Meats (except from the hind quarters) from cattle, lamb, goat, or deer, and from most common fowl (e.g., chicken, turkey, goose, duck) may all be eaten.

The traditional dispute over swordfish and sturgeon concerns the status of their scales. According to Ramban, the Torah refers only to scales that can be detached from the skin of the fish. The scales of the swordfish and sturgeon can be removed from the skin, but only with difficulty. Thus, Orthodox authorities generally regard these fish as non-kosher, whereas the Conservative movement has ruled them kosher.
This dispute also affects the kashrut of caviar, which is derived from sturgeon.
On the prohibition of meat from the hind quarters of permitted four-legged animals, see section 5.3.


5.2 Gelatin, Cheese, Wine

5.2.1 For our basic practice we will adopt the standards of the Conservative Movement that treat all gelatin and cheese as acceptable.

"Some substances that originate in animal sources undergo such complete change as a result of chemical treatment that they can no longer be regarded as ‘meat' products. This is the case with both gelatin and rennet, which Conservative authorities have ruled are kosher." (Dresner, S, Keeping Kosher [United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, 2000], 63.)
5.2.2 All wines or other alcoholic beverages are acceptable. In the case of Jewish ceremonies only kosher wine or grape juice should be used.


"When wine is used for the fulfillment of a mitzvah, such as circumcision, weddings, kiddush, and havdalah, it is proper to use wine that is certified kosher" (Dresner, 64). The fact that the wine was produced by Jews and the production process supervised by Jewish religious authorities adds to the sacred character of the occasion.
5.3 Shechitah and Removal of Blood

5.3.1 The most basic Biblical dietary law, addressed not only to Israel but also to the nations of the world in Noah, involves avoiding the eating of blood (i.e., foods that are cooked in or with blood). Concern to guard this core dietary law led to the institution of Shechitah - the Jewish ritual slaughter of animals (which removes the vast majority of the blood) - and the special preparation of meat (which removes the remainder). Therefore, ideally it is recommended that only meat slaughtered and packaged under reliable kosher supervision be purchased.


The prohibition of ingesting blood, enjoined on all humanity in Genesis 9:4 and confirmed in Acts 15:20, 29; 21:25), is given when human beings are first permitted to eat meat (Genesis 9:3). Permission to eat meat is a concession to the violence that precipitated the flood (Genesis 6:11, 13). The prohibition of eating blood, the one universal dietary restriction, immediately precedes the prohibition of murder (Genesis 9:5-6) - the shedding of human blood. Thus, this universal dietary law expresses the biblical value of reverence for life.
It is striking that all carnivorous animals are ritually impure, according to Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14. The nations of the world are forbidden to eat the blood of animals, but Israel must go a step further - it must avoid even the meat of animals that consume the blood of other animals. In this way the value of reverence for life is doubly reinforced.
Because it is not specifically a Jewish prohibition but a universal one, the commandment not to eat blood (along with many other universal commandments) is not what we are calling here a "basic practice." It is assumed that all Yeshua-believers should desire to keep this commandment and thus, within reasonable limits, will avoid consuming blood.
The prohibition against eating blood is elucidated in Ezekiel 33:25, where the prophet speaks these words of condemnation on behalf of Hashem: "You eat with the blood" (which probably means, "You eat meat with the blood in it"). Thus, Jews must purge meat of blood to the extent that this can be reasonably accomplished. This is done through kosher slaughter and additional measures.
While Shechitah refers specifically to the kosher slaughtering of an animal, in the above decision the term is used more broadly to cover both the kosher slaughtering (done by a shochet) and the processing and preparation of the meat (done by a butcher). The latter is technically called porging, and involves (1) removal of residual blood remaining after Shechitah; (2) removal of fats prohibited by the Torah (Leviticus 3:17); and (3) removal of the sciatic nerve, as required by Genesis 32:33 (see below). Given the evident basis of these practices in the Written Torah, the institution of Shechitah should be honored among us as Messianic Jews, and if at all feasible we should seek to purchase meat slaughtered and packaged under reliable kosher supervision.
5.3.2 Most meat labeled kosher has been salted to remove the blood. One should investigate to see if this is the case with kosher meat one has purchased. If it is not the case, one should remove the blood oneself through salting or broiling.

For a detailed description of the process of salting and boiling, see Klein, 350-57.
Liver requires broiling because of the preponderance of blood in it.
"Because it contains an excessive amount of blood, liver can be koshered only by broiling, and should not be soaked. Even if liver is to be cooked in some other way, it must first be soaked." (Dresner, 62)

5.3.3 While the purchase of meat slaughtered and butchered under reliable kosher supervision is highly recommended, given the difficulty in many places of obtaining kosher meat our basic practice will not involve eating only such meat. It will involve urging that we avoid meat from the hindquarters of permitted four-legged animals (a practice rooted in Jacob's injury in Genesis 32).

Cuts that are acceptable according to our basic practice include Chuck, Rib and Ribeye, Shank and Brisket, Skirt and Flank. Also permitted are London Broil (when from the shoulder), and Cubed Steak and Ground Beef (when they do not contain elements from the hindquarters).
Cuts that are to be avoided include Top Loin (Strip or Shell) Steak, T-Bone, Porterhouse, Tenderloin, Sirloin, Tri-Tip, and Round. (London Broil from the Bottom or Top Rounds are likewise to be avoided.)
The angel who wrestled with Jacob "wrenched Jacob's hip at its socket" (Genesis 32:26). The Torah tells us that this event is remembered by Jacob's descendants through a dietary restriction: "That is why the children of Israel to this day do not eat the thigh muscle that is on the socket of the hip, since Jacob's hip socket was wrenched at the thigh muscle" (Genesis 32:33). This dietary restriction remains a Jewish practice, and involves the removal of the sciatic nerve by a kosher butcher (m. Chullin 7:1-6). Since this procedure is very difficult even for a trained kosher butcher, it is customary in the diaspora to set aside the hindquarters and sell them to non-Jews.
If it is not feasible to obtain kosher meat or practice vegetarianism, and if we purchase meat of permitted animals from another source, our basic practice - in accordance with Genesis 32:33 - entails avoiding meat from the hindquarters.

5.4 Separating Meat & Dairy

Our basic standard should urge that people avoid eating meat products (including fowl) and obvious dairy products (or foods containing obvious dairy products) together in a given meal. Meat may be eaten after eating obvious dairy foods without any time interval, though they should not be present together at the same table. After eating a meat meal, the minimum time interval before eating obvious dairy products should be one hour.
By "obvious dairy products," we mean milk and milk products such as cheese, butter, yogurt, and ice cream. Some products normally considered "nondairy" (some nondairy creamers, margarine, dessert toppings) actually contain dairy derivatives, and so are technically not pareve. Such products are not included in "obvious dairy products."
The separation of meat and dairy products is associated with the Torah's prohibition of eating a kid cooked in its mother's milk (Exodus 23:19; 34:26; Deuteronomy 14:21). The Mishnah states: "No flesh may be cooked with milk save the flesh of fish and locusts; and it is forbidden to serve it up together with cheese upon the table excepting the flesh of fish and locusts" (m. Chullin 8:1). While such separation is not obviously implicit in the biblical text, it should be respected as an ancient fence around the biblical prohibition that is firmly grounded in Jewish tradition and practice. (The sages themselves viewed this as a ruling of the Written Torah.)
The separation of meat and dairy products is also rich in symbolic significance. As noted above (5.3.1), permission to eat meat is a concession to the violence that precipitated the flood. In the creation narrative human beings are assigned an exclusively vegetarian diet (Genesis 1:29). While the laws of kashrut do not impose a return to that pristine regimen, their fundamental concern is the limitation of meat consumption. Only certain animals may be eaten, and even they must be slaughtered and prepared in a certain fashion (or they are also excluded). Now we add a further restriction - that even properly slaughtered and prepared meat cannot be consumed with dairy products. This final limitation points us back to the original reason for restricting the consumption of meat: reverence for life. As dairy products symbolize the nurturing of new life, it is fitting that they not be mixed with foods which require the taking of life.
The inclusion of fowl in this prohibition is a further rabbinic fence, and is acknowledged as such by the sages (b. Chullin 113a). It was reasonable to group fowl together with beef, lamb, etc., and to distinguish both from fish, as the first two groups are both subject to the laws of Shechitah, while fish are not. The inclusion of fowl in the separation of meat and dairy is as established in Jewish tradition as the separation itself, and as such deserves our respect. It also contributes to the primary symbolic significance of the custom, and of the dietary laws as a whole - reverence for life.
No particular time limit between eating meat and dairy products is specified in the Talmud. Therefore, a variety of customs developed in Jewish communities around the world. In some places the minimum interval was as long as six hours; in other places it was as short as one hour. In keeping with our principle of establishing a basic practice that is as accessible as possible, we have adopted the most lenient custom as our basic practice.
 
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ChazakEmunah

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I would also remind you that Chabad permitted the trachea ripping at Rubashkin. Rubashkin also gives Chabad millions of dollars. Works out nicely for both.
Hmm.... Sounds like another mitnagad baseless accusation to me.... Oh wait.... There's a term for that.. It's called motzi shemra....
 
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ChavaK

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Chava,
Do you know who HaRav HaGaon Moshe Feinstein Ztz'l was?

Of course, and if you are going where I think you
are going, it doesn't matter...;)
I hold by what my rabbis teach me, and yes they
are very aware of who he is too :D
 
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ChavaK

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I would also remind you that Chabad permitted the trachea ripping at Rubashkin. Rubashkin also gives Chabad millions of dollars. Works out nicely for both.

I am not here to slander fellow Jews; my rabbis tell
us not to use Triangle K because their plants are
not properly supervised. They are not saying it is
because Triangle K doesn't give enough kick backs.

Besides the thread is about what do Messianics
think of hechshers....I mentioned the Tri K because
in my experience no one uses it. What you choose
to use, you choose to use.
:wave:
 
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ChavaK

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There isn't any particular certification that we value more than others.

I've only recently moved into this degree of observance of Kashrus. That I'm only buying things marked kosher is a big step up for me. The day may come when I'm pickier about WHICH cedrtification. But right now, that would be overwhelming.

Our Standards of Observance are not meant to be halakhic rulings, but do draw on halakhah. Our rabbis ask a "basic practice" of all Jews in MJ (not that it is always followed, lol) but also recommend a stricter extended practice. That said, here is a partial quote from the MJRC's website, Kashrut page. You will notice that the certificaiton issue is brought up regarding meat but not other products. Also even with meat, certification has not been made part of basic practice. THIS was controversial. There are rabbis on the council do not agree. Individual MJ's are of course free to go beyond this, to Orthodox standards. The Standards of Observance are supposed to begin introducing a minimal expectation in a community which until now hasn't had any -- the standards are NOT a statement of the ideal.

Thanks, Ger....I'll take a look after I have more time
after work....
 
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Talmidah

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Of course, and if you are going where I think you
are going, it doesn't matter...;)
I hold by what my rabbis teach me, and yes they
are very aware of who he is too :D

I am not here to slander fellow Jews; my rabbis tell
us not to use Triangle K because their plants are
not properly supervised. They are not saying it is
because Triangle K doesn't give enough kick backs.
I am quite suprised at your attitude here....:(
Besides the thread is about what do Messianics
think of hechshers....I mentioned the Tri K because
in my experience no one uses it. What you choose
to use, you choose to use.
:wave:
Agreed.
 
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TheRabbi

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Of course, you should do what your rabbis tell you. But when someone states that a hechsher is not reliable, they have left the realm of, "I'm just doing what my rabbi said". They are now issuing their own opinion to others and when they do so, they should be able to show what is unreliable about the hechsher.

If someone had said I don't eat trangle K because my Rabbi said not to, you would have never heard a ppep from me. But that's not what happened. A thread called "Warning" was created. And everyone seemed to want to jump to call Tri K unnacceptable. That's an incredibly serious accusation and you can't just say things that damage a God fearing Rabbi's reputation if you don't have sources and documented examples to bring.
 
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ChazakEmunah

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I have an example. The Frito Lay company was contacted and asked how often the Triangle K inspects their facility. The surprising answer: "Oh, we just fax them our ingredients list." {This is first-hand knowledge. No hearsay here.}
 
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Lulav

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Following the outline of what GerT posted ( and this is not across the board Messianic ruling, just the UMJC whom all Messianic congregations are not a part of. )

All pork products, shellfish, and food containing their elements (e.g., lard) are to be avoided. - Agree

I do not agree with their interpretation of Acts 10 however.

I do not eat Sturgeon or Swordfish

They mentioned vegetables, fruits canned, frozen, etc must have hechsher to get in my grocery cart. Vegetables ( including prepackaged salads), must be washed properly to avoid contamination by bugs, also fruit products, roll ups, sauces ( apple) must be examined for things like worms.

Grape products I look for hecksher and most times they are Kosher companies.

5.2 Gelatin, Cheese, Wine

Do not agree with Conservative practices, I do not eat any cheese with animal gelatin that is not certified from kosher fish. This includes all products that contain gelatin, cookies, pastries, candies, marshmallows, etc.

I only drink certified Kosher wine too, for all occasions, and other alcohol, must be certified.

5.3 Shechitah and Removal of Blood

Reliable hechsher only on meats, and fish, nothing with blood, I double Kasher livers. ( this is not to say I rely solely on a hechsher like in the case of Rubushkin, I won't buy from them any longer.) I am currently looking into Solomons meats.

I do not eat things such as 'turkey bacon' etc, as these still could be contaminated with blood, fat , etc. I do eat some sausages from a kosher butcher.

5.3.3 While the purchase of meat slaughtered and butchered under reliable kosher supervision is highly recommended, given the difficulty in many places of obtaining kosher meat our basic practice will not involve eating only such meat. It will involve urging that we avoid meat from the hindquarters of permitted four-legged animals (a practice rooted in Jacob's injury in Genesis 32).

I don't agree with this, there are many other ways of getting protein, if you can't afford the meat or it isn't available locally ( but many can be shipped) then other sources, beans, grains, and fish make an adequate diet.


Some Hechshers I look for and use mainly are OU ( with some exceptions) star K, Qof K, Tablet K , half moon K ( these are on cereal products mostly).
 
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TheRabbi

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I have an example. The Frito Lay company was contacted and asked how often the Triangle K inspects their facility. The surprising answer: "Oh, we just fax them our ingredients list." {This is first-hand knowledge. No hearsay here.}

Who said they have to be inspected at all? Ask your Rabbi if it's okay to drink Jack Daniels or Glenfiddich. Do they have inspection? They don't have any hashgacha at all! We know what's in it and we know how it's made. And just about everybody says it's okay. It is a fundamental misunderstanding of halacha to assume that everything needs inspection.

I've got news for you. A couple of generations ago, everybody was reading labels. Hechsherim are a wonderful help, but they are not a necessity, nor are they halachically mandated.

You think triangle K is maikel? I used to work at a company that had Badatz Eidah Chareidis and OU hechsherim. The Badatz guys were certified to sign for the OU hechsher as well as their own. They showed up about once every three months. There were six of them (Belzer Chassidim). They stood outside, smoked cigarettes, drank up all of our sodas and took over our minyan. Then they got back in their van and left. In over 3 years of observing these guys, I never once saw them ask to inspect anything. The truth is, they really didn't need to. If you think you've got a Rabbi looking over the goy's shoulder because of an OU, you don't understand the way things work.
 
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Lulav

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However we shouldn't throw all caution to the wind. I remember thinking things like 100% Pure Maple syrup were A-OK to eat without worrying about certification, I mean , it's 100% sugar boiled down from a tree, what could be wrong with that?

Then I found out that traditionally in the last 100 years or so in the maple sugaring process, they used pig lard to grease the troughs that the syrup flowed down to keep it from sticking.

Now I make sure my 100% Pure Maple Syrup is just that! ;)
 
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ChavaK

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However we shouldn't throw all caution to the wind. I remember thinking things like 100% Pure Maple syrup were A-OK to eat without worrying about certification, I mean , it's 100% sugar boiled down from a tree, what could be wrong with that?

Then I found out that traditionally in the last 100 years or so in the maple sugaring process, they used pig lard to grease the troughs that the syrup flowed down to keep it from sticking.

Now I make sure my 100% Pure Maple Syrup is just that! ;)

Exactly...it isn't just about the ingredients. It's the
equipment, manufacturing processes, and ingredients
that are not listed (or that are not made clear)
that are also issues....
 
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Lulav

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No, it's definitely about cross contamination. I understand that more than most here, as I have CD and even if the ingredients are kosher, and do not contain wheat rye, spelt , etc, if this product was even made from rice that was processed in a plant that processed wheat, or even it was made on equipment that may have processed something else, or even they may have used flour from wheat as a release agent, but not part of the product itself, I get sick.:sick:

I sure know what Paul meant by a little leaven leavenith the whole lump. One 1000th of something not permissible for me can really make me sick and eventually can kill me.:swoon:
 
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