Hebrews 13:17

[RobFromLI]

I have been studying this verse (Hebrews 13:17) because it troubles me that it seems in the most common interpretations to be inconsistent with the surrounding text and also the rest of the New Testament in a couple of ways. This may be an artifact of my misunderstanding; that's why I'm here, to seek advice from those who may be more of scholars in Greek and in the vernacular of the time period and the New Testament.

I have done a lot of reading on the translation of "obey" versus "be convinced, listen carefully, etc" in the beginning of the verse and I do see the different interpretations there that have come about. I will leave the question of which of these is correct for another time.

However what troubles me is the "give account" part of the verse.

The word "account" is "logos" in the Greek. I am wondering why, instead of the idea of someone else besides God or Christ giving an account of my soul, which seems in stark contrast to John 14:6 and 1 Timothy 2:5 and contrary to God's omniscience (that He would need someone to give Him an account of me), why is this not better translated as logos would be used in John 1:1 - "those who must give you the Word", which to me would be entirely consistent with verse 7 of the same chapter and the idea of the chapter.

It would be a burden to them if they were giving us the word and we were following strange doctrines and not trusting them about its meaning. Whereas, if they give us the word and we turn away from it or disbelieve it, through Matthew 10:14, they should not be so downtrodden about it - certainly sad that the person is not saved but not a burden - a burden would imply that they are continually pastoring to one who does not believe, does not follow, etc which would not be in keeping with Matthew 18:15-17. We witness to unbelievers, not pastor them.

So my proposition, which is very much just a question and I'm not putting this forth as a correct translation, would be why couldn't the verse be something like (loosely, not word for word)

Have confidence in your leaders and believe the teaching they give you rather than questioning it, because they keep watch over you as those who must give you the Word. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The word "account" is "logos" in the Greek. I am wondering why, instead of the idea of someone else besides God or Christ giving an account of my soul, which seems in stark contrast to John 14:6 and 1 Timothy 2:5 and contrary to God's omniscience (that He would need someone to give Him an account of me), why is this not better translated as logos would be used in John 1:1 - "those who must give you the Word", which to me would be entirely consistent with verse 7 of the same chapter and the idea of the chapter.

Hey Rob, and welcome to Christian Forums.

The word λόγος generally carries the sense of "reckoning," and in this case the verse in question simply means that they will have to account for themselves in how they governed you and led you in the Lord. It means make their job easier, because they are carrying a responsibility where you are concerned. If I understand you correctly, it does not mean (as you say) that somehow God doesn't know what you are doing.

Did that answer your question, or do I not fully understand you yet?

 

[RobFromLI]

Hey Rob, and welcome to Christian Forums.

The word λόγος generally carries the sense of "reckoning," and in this case the verse in question simply means that they will have to account for themselves in how they governed you and led you in the Lord. It means make their job easier, because they are carrying a responsibility where you are concerned. If I understand you correctly, it does not mean (as you say) that somehow God doesn't know what you are doing.

Did that answer your question, or do I not fully understand you yet?

Thanks for the warm welcome and your answer. You do understand me correctly, and I have seen some reference to the leader being accountable for themselves in commentaries on this passage, but all of the explanations that I could find also seemed to carry the notion that they are somehow giving an account of their flock's actions at the same time which is the part that troubles me.

I guess in thinking about it further the phrasing seems a bit odd to me if it is in respect of answering for themselves - as though their accountability depends upon how the flock receives their teaching rather than whether their teaching is correct and they have given it faithfully.

Are they accountable for teaching and scriptural counseling or are they accountable also somehow for making sure their charges respond to it? It seems to me that my questioning them will result in them feeling grief because being questioned will cause them to have to give a bad report of themselves to God even though their teaching may be correct and I may be wrong in questioning it. This is a subtle point and I'm finding it hard to even write clearly.

Part of the reason I ask this is also that I am currently doing some leading of study and possibly looking toward something bigger down the road if God leads me there, and I really want to understand the truth of my obligations and duties as a teacher rather than misunderstand or artificially weaken God's word due to my own misunderstanding. Put simply, this seems like a critical passage for anyone teaching the Word to understand.

 

[Hidden In Him]

all of the explanations that I could find also seemed to carry the notion that they are somehow giving an account of their flock's actions at the same time which is the part that troubles me... I guess in thinking about it further the phrasing seems a bit odd to me if it is in respect of answering for themselves - as though their accountability depends upon how the flock receives their teaching rather than whether their teaching is correct and they have given it faithfully.

Ha Ha! No, they are discharging their responsibilities fully if they teach the word accurately and present it by example to their flock by actually living it. They would also be responsible for not choking their flock out with too strong a teaching, such as feeding babes meat, that sort of thing. But if they are fully responsible in their leadership and their flock still chooses to reject them, they have done their best. After that, they cannot be held accountable for the sins of others.

It seems to me that my questioning them will result in them feeling grief because being questioned will cause them to have to give a bad report of themselves to God even though their teaching may be correct and I may be wrong in questioning it. This is a subtle point and I'm finding it hard to even write clearly.

No, no. No true leader worth his salt is going to go off the rails just because you questioned them about something. Someone who is strong in both the word and the Lord will be gracious and patient, and always ready to teach you in meekness and humility. Any thoughts of "offending them" by simply asking questions should be viewed as anathema at best, ridiculous at worst. Now if you continually question them in a spirit of resentment or disrespect, as despising their authority, that's a different story. That's a refusal to honor established authority, and a big no, no (1 Peter 5:5-6). But simply asking questions about what they are teaching and why shouldn't be taken as some sort of a threat. If they take it that way it is usually a bad sign of there being some insecurities at work.

Part of the reason I ask this is also that I am currently doing some leading of study and possibly looking toward something bigger down the road if God leads me there, and I really want to understand the truth of my obligations and duties as a teacher rather than misunderstand or artificially weaken God's word due to my own misunderstanding. Put simply, this seems like a critical passage for anyone teaching the Word to understand.

If you are called to teach, do so with a great deal of wisdom and knowledge of the word. Invest yourself completely in the study of the scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16-17). But always do so in a spirit of humility, and by example (2 Timothy 2:20-21, plus 2 Timothy 2:24-26; James 3:13-18). If not, you will be doing what the scripture refers to as "holding the truth in unrighteousness."

 

[Hidden In Him]

If you are called to teach, do so with a great deal of wisdom and knowledge of the word. Invest yourself completely in the study of the scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16-17). But always do so in a spirit of humility, and by example (2 Timothy 2:20-21, plus 2 Timothy 2:24-26; James 3:13-18). If not, you will be doing what the scripture refers to as "holding the truth in unrighteousness."

By the way, thanks for asking about this issue. The fact that it brought to mind the above passages I quoted (especially the last two) reminded me that my humility has been a little bit lacking lately too, lol.

We all still need work.... and prayer.

 

[RobFromLI]

By the way, thanks for asking about this issue. The fact that it brought to mind the above passages I quoted (especially the last two) reminded me that my humility has been a little bit lacking lately too, lol.

We all still need work.... and prayer.

Thank you very much for your answers and the thoughtfulness within them. I definitely need to be deep in prayer about all of this and one of the things I'm seeking from Him is, I have great love for His scripture and being about His business but am I truly calculating the cost well enough (Luke 14:28-33) to be able to fully give my life to Him and study of His word, and is that in fact what He has for me (and if not what is the alternative!!). Pray for me brother. I praise Him that He brought me here to a fellow believer and as always He had more than one purpose

 

[paul1149]

Have confidence in your leaders and believe the teaching they give you rather than questioning it, because they keep watch over you as those who must give you the Word. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

Hi Rob,
I would say that is a serious misreading of the verse. The translation of logos as account stems from the verb apodidomi, which carries the meaning of paying back or delivering what is due. Paul uses it in 1Cor 7, for instance, in reference to husband and wife not withholding from each other conjugal rights. So here the leaders will have to deliver back to God the "word", or account, of their stewardship. Nowhere in the Bible is one responsible for someone else, if they have discharged their own witnessing duty. Else Christ himself would have been accountable when He wept outside Jerusalem because they wouldn't listen to Him. And of course that is not the case.

The leaders in question are simply responsible for their own stewardship. Beyond that, it is up to the people to decide what they will do with what is taught/modeled. Otherwise what is already a difficult job would be simply impossible.

Since you included the first part of the verse, let me comment on it. "Obey" is in the middle voice, somewhere between active and passive. It does not mean straight-out obedience. It means to incorporate what the leaders say into your response. You are neither independent nor fully dependent on what the leaders say and do. You take what they say and do into careful consideration. But as always, each one is personally accountable for his choices. "The soul that sins, it will die" - Ezek.

As for questioning what you are presented, any leader worth his salt will tell you to prove what he says by the Word. If this is not his practice, I would suggest getting yourself out from under him, because there is a cult dynamic going on.

 

[Hidden In Him]

am I truly calculating the cost well enough (Luke 14:28-33) to be able to fully give my life to Him and study of His word, and is that in fact what He has for me (and if not what is the alternative!!). Pray for me brother. I praise Him that He brought me here to a fellow believer and as always He had more than one purpose

Amen. I will pray for you, Rob. And about your wondering if you are called to it and can count the cost, let me just put it this way:

If you are truly called it won't go away. The call will just keep getting louder and louder and louder until you know beyond any shadow of doubt. And once you know beyond any shadow of doubt you don't even want to think about the alternative, lol. (1 Corinthians 9:16)

 

[Hidden In Him]

As for questioning what you are presented, any leader worth his salt will tell you to prove what he says by the Word. If this is not his practice, I would suggest getting yourself out from under him, because there is a cult dynamic going on.

Hey Paul! The "worth his salt" line was my thing! You make me fearful I might be starting a cult, lol.

 

[paul1149]

Hey Paul! The "worth his salt" line was my thing! You make me fearful I might be starting a cult, lol.

oh, wow. I hope you don't hit me for plagiarizing. I didn't see that. I plead ignorance (as I often have to..)

 

[Hidden In Him]

Glad you're showing signs of repentance. If I started a cult trend, I'm not sure I could live with myself.

 

[RobFromLI]

Hi Rob,
I would say that is a serious misreading of the verse. The translation of logos as account stems from the verb apodidomi, which carries the meaning of paying back or delivering what is due. Paul uses it in 1Cor 7, for instance, in reference to husband and wife not withholding from each other conjugal rights. So here the leaders will have to deliver back to God the "word", or account, of their stewardship. Nowhere in the Bible is one responsible for someone else, if they have discharged their own witnessing duty. Else Christ himself would have been accountable when He wept outside Jerusalem because they wouldn't listen to Him. And of course that is not the case.

The leaders in question are simply responsible for their own stewardship. Beyond that, it is up to the people to decide what they will do with what is taught/modeled. Otherwise what is already a difficult job would be simply impossible.

Since you included the first part of the verse, let me comment on it. "Obey" is in the middle voice, somewhere between active and passive. It does not mean straight-out obedience. It means to incorporate what the leaders say into your response. You are neither independent nor fully dependent on what the leaders say and do. You take what they say and do into careful consideration. But as always, each one is personally accountable for his choices. "The soul that sins, it will die" - Ezek.

As for questioning what you are presented, any leader worth his salt will tell you to prove what he says by the Word. If this is not his practice, I would suggest getting yourself out from under him, because there is a cult dynamic going on.

Thank you very much for the analysis and info - as I suspected I need to strengthen my knowledge of Greek a little before I go writing my own translation As far as the worth his salt part this is more of a theoretical question thankfully right now as opposed to anyone being upset at me questioning them. I actually wound up focused on this verse as a result of my pastor mentioning it off the cuff in the middle of a discussion of a whole other piece of scripture but as they say that is a story for another day.. I had to have read it previously but as happens many times this time it jumped out at me.

I love the example of Jesus weeping for Jerusalem - one of my favorite passages in the bible as well for many reasons.

 

[paul1149]

It was verses such as this, and the terrible tearing they, as typically translated into English, did to my spirit, that caused me to begin to learn a little about the mechanics of Greek.

 

[Denadii]

I have been studying this verse (Hebrews 13:17) because it troubles me that it seems in the most common interpretations to be inconsistent with the surrounding text and also the rest of the New Testament in a couple of ways. This may be an artifact of my misunderstanding; that's why I'm here, to seek advice from those who may be more of scholars in Greek and in the vernacular of the time period and the New Testament.

I have done a lot of reading on the translation of "obey" versus "be convinced, listen carefully, etc" in the beginning of the verse and I do see the different interpretations there that have come about. I will leave the question of which of these is correct for another time.

However what troubles me is the "give account" part of the verse.

The word "account" is "logos" in the Greek. I am wondering why, instead of the idea of someone else besides God or Christ giving an account of my soul, which seems in stark contrast to John 14:6 and 1 Timothy 2:5 and contrary to God's omniscience (that He would need someone to give Him an account of me), why is this not better translated as logos would be used in John 1:1 - "those who must give you the Word", which to me would be entirely consistent with verse 7 of the same chapter and the idea of the chapter.

It would be a burden to them if they were giving us the word and we were following strange doctrines and not trusting them about its meaning. Whereas, if they give us the word and we turn away from it or disbelieve it, through Matthew 10:14, they should not be so downtrodden about it - certainly sad that the person is not saved but not a burden - a burden would imply that they are continually pastoring to one who does not believe, does not follow, etc which would not be in keeping with Matthew 18:15-17. We witness to unbelievers, not pastor them.

So my proposition, which is very much just a question and I'm not putting this forth as a correct translation, would be why couldn't the verse be something like (loosely, not word for word)

Have confidence in your leaders and believe the teaching they give you rather than questioning it, because they keep watch over you as those who must give you the Word. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

Paul said 'Do what I do because I do what I see Him do.' Ok? If your pastor is following Jesus faithfully, you can know you're safe in following him. Personally, I will NOT follow a pastor I do not trust, a pastor I see is following his own path. I have no problem following a leader who is walking in/on the path, but one who wanders all over the landscape? Nuh uh. He could easily lead me to my demise.

All that verse is saying is that. If the leader is godly you follow him.