Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

Ken Rank · Jun 4, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Of course Jesus said that "I have NOT BEEN SENT BUT to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.". Because He was the Salvation for all the world. See how much greater the New Covenant is. You so make my point. We are all fellow citizens in the New Covenant. Praise Jesus!

You were gentiles in the flesh but you are not now. You were an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel, but you are now a fellow citizen. That is what Paul shared in Ephesians 2.

Messiah's comments about not being sent BUT to the lost sheep means he went to the lost sheep. When he commissioned the 12 he said, DON'T go to the pagans (gentiles) but rather go to the lost sheep of Israel. His mission, he said, was to them... and the mission of the 12 was to them.

Peace to you.
Ken

Netzari777 · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
I am an elder in a congregation that would fall into this category. Like Christianity mainstream, there are many flavors of Hebrew Roots. Some to take things to an extreme... I tend to avoid them. With most you'll consistently find agreement on most everything you believe but there tends to be one sticking point, the Torah. (Law) While we do NOT believe that salvation comes from obedience at all, we also do not believe that Yeshua (Jesus) did away with it either. A verse like Matthew 5:17, for example, is literally contradicting itself if we force the word "fulfill" to mean "abolish." So, while we believe in salvation by grace, we also believe we are to do what Yeshua did, which is follow the law. 1 John 3:4 says that sin is the breaking of the law, living outside of the law, and if that is true, then perhaps there are other verses we have been interpreting out of context.

I would be happy to answer any questions about what I believe and why.... I won't debate because I don't care if you don't agree. I believe what I believe and you (anyone) can believe what you believe and we'll let God sort it out later. Peace!

Very well said.

I would add Deuteronomy 13:1-5. If a prophet teaches you not to keep the Commandments, stone him.

What mainstream Christianity has a hard time seeing is the FREEDOM of Torah. YHWH gave us the appointed times to observe, and the laws governing relationships to teach us HOW to love YHWH with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves. In the Messiah I am free to do what the Creator said to do without condemnation.

All the feasts of YHWH; Passover, first fruits, weeks, trumpets, atonement and tabernacles have Messianic significance. Why would we want to celebrate the feasts of pagan gods when the Creator has told us when his appointed times are?

If my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, why would I fill it with things YHWH calls abominations? If someone will eat a pig they may as well eat horses, cats and rhinos.

Steeno7 · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Yes.... that is why Paul called it "arrhabōn," (G728) an earnest, a down payment (again, 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 - please go look them up). The text plainly states that I will make a covenant, I will write the law on the mind and heart, and it will happen WHEN?

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

But since we still need to teach, and not all know the Lord... then it hasn't happened yet. Cute emoticon but if we still need to teach and not all know the Lord, then only your desire to maintain your current beliefs can trump the text. You're welcome to that, I mean it... but don't waste your time trying to change my mind. I don't mind being wrong... but I am not on this. The verse is pasted above... not all know the Lord, we still need to teach, that clearly means it isn't fully in place, YET. That is work Yeshua will do when he returns. It is part of the perfection process...

No reason to get snarky.... I am just sharing some thoughts. If you don't agree, so be it.

Except Paul is speaking about the Holy Spirit, not the law. The same Holy Spirit who is noticeably absent from your "paradign".

Netzari777 · Jun 4, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
That is not what Luke 24:44 says.

Luke 22:44
"And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground."

It seems the Messiah was in prayer to the Father.

You got the wrong chapter.........

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Ken Rank · Jun 4, 2015

Steeno7 said:
Except Paul is speaking about the Holy Spirit, not the law. The same Holy Spirit who is noticeably absent from your "paradign".

Not at all... the Spirit is the strength and means through which we have understanding. Where would you get otherwise from anything I said? The bible says that the Torah will be written on the mind and heart and WHEN THAT HAPPENS there will no longer be a need to teach because ALL will know YHWH. Do all know Him now? No... so it hasn't happened yet! Do we still need to teach, have we learned all there is to learn? No... so it hasn't happened yet.

ToBeLoved · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
You were gentiles in the flesh but you are not now. You were an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel, but you are now a fellow citizen. That is what Paul shared in Ephesians 2.

Messiah's comments about not being sent BUT to the lost sheep means he went to the lost sheep. When he commissioned the 12 he said, DON'T go to the pagans (gentiles) but rather go to the lost sheep of Israel. His mission, he said, was to them... and the mission of the 12 was to them.

Peace to you.
Ken

Jesus did reach out to Isarael, they denied Him. His mission was first to the Jew, than the gentile. I don't mind not being first.

Steeno7 · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
I am not trying to do that. I was asked a question, then... you made a point that is not supported by history nor scripture. So, I shared an excerpt from an article I wrote. It explains when and why Christianity ceased being a sect of Judaism. If you choose to just believe whatever you believe, that is fine. If you choose not to read the post, that is fine. I shared it and it is there if you want to read it. If not, fine. But I am not trying to get you to believe anything... I am answering questions and a few accusations.

Folks... I have no axe to grind and consider you all brothers and sisters. We don't need to see eye to eye... what we do need to to is not cause strife among brethren, God HATES that (see Prov. 6:16-19). So, either this becomes an edifying conversation where we can share and glean with and from each other, or I am done.

Christianity was never a sect of the religion of Judaism. It was only considered a sect of it. For a time, by some. Big difference.

Steeno7 · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Not at all... the Spirit is the strength and means through which we have understanding. Where would you get otherwise from anything I said? The bible says that the Torah will be written on the mind and heart and WHEN THAT HAPPENS there will no longer be a need to teach because ALL will know YHWH. Do all know Him now? No... so it hasn't happened yet! Do we still need to teach, have we learned all there is to learn? No... so it hasn't happened yet.

That it hasn't happened yet for you is really your problem, why are you trying to make your problem we Christians problem? Christians are already new creations in Christ, living in the new covenant Jesus ratified by His death on the cross.

Messy · Jun 4, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Yes.... that is why Paul called it "arrhabōn," (G728) an earnest, a down payment (again, 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 - please go look them up). The text plainly states that I will make a covenant, I will write the law on the mind and heart, and it will happen WHEN?

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

But since we still need to teach, and not all know the Lord... then it hasn't happened yet.

Maybe it's already written on our heart, but our mind needs to be renewed by the Word of God.
Ephesians 4
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ

Netzari777 · Jun 4, 2015

Steeno7 said:
Christianity was never a sect of the religion of Judaism. It was only considered a sect of it. For a time, by some. Big difference.

Paul's first missionary journey was not until 10+ years after the resurrection. Until then, virtually all the believers in the Messiah were Hebrews. When the 3,000 were added on Pentecost they were all Hebrews on the annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Because they had been scattered to different parts of the known world, they adopted the local languages.

Pentecost, or more accurately, shavu'ot, is celebrated as the day Moses came down Mt Sinai with the Torah.
It is a required pilgrimage. Deuteronomy 16:16

Steeno7 · Jun 4, 2015

Netzari777 said:
Paul's first missionary journey was not until 10+ years after the resurrection. Until then, virtually all the believers in the Messiah were Hebrews. When the 3,000 were added on Pentecost they were all Hebrews on the annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Because they had been scattered to different parts of the known world, they adopted the local languages.

Pentecost, or more accurately, shavu'ot, is celebrated as the day Moses came down Mt Sinai with the Torah.
It is a required pilgrimage. Deuteronomy 16:16

So?

Netzari777 · Jun 4, 2015

Steeno7 said:
So?

So, it was, for all intents and purposes, a sect of Judaism.

It was the sect that said "the Pharisees have added to the Torah, and we will no longer be bound by their rules."

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 4, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
There is a MAJOR difference between the New Testament and the Old Testament. That is the Old Covenant vs. the New Covenant. God has not changed, per se, but the New Covenant is what puts the Old Testament into perspective.

The Old Testament was not under grace, nor saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. BIG DIFFERENCE.

I disagree.

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 4, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Jesus made the clarification when HE said that He gives us a 'New Coventant'. Mosaic Law is the 'Old Covenant'. So, following Jesus teaching put's Mosaic Law and the Old Covenant into perspective, which is EXACTLY what I said.

Mosaic Law was good and needed during the Old Testament, but Jesus makes it clear that the New Covenant was needed because NO ONE COULD KEEP THE OLD COVENANT. We see time and time again how the Israelite's FAILED in keeping the Old Covenant. That is one of the many reasons why making too much of Mosaic Law is a PROBLEM. They could not keep it then, and no one can keep it now.

That is a fact!

That is different from what Paul says in Romans and Hebrews. Don't just read snippets read the whole thing together. Then only thing Paul refers to as new, over and over and over again, is there is a New High Priest. We are free from the law of sin and death. We are not free from the law that says "do not murder", we are not free from the law that says "do not lie", etc.. We are not saved by keeping the law but Yeshua DID say "IF you love Me you WILL keep my commandments".

Steeno7 · Jun 4, 2015

Netzari777 said:
So, it was, for all intents and purposes, a sect of Judaism.

It was the sect that said "the Pharisees have added to the Torah, and we will no longer be bound by their rules."

Ummm, no. They had come out of the religion of Judaism. That they were ethnically Jewish, does nothing to help your premise.

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 4, 2015

Steeno7 said:
Then why do you still advocate for adherence to the law on stone?

They're the same laws, they are just transferred from stone to heart.

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 4, 2015

Steeno7 said:
Ummm, no. They had come out of the religion of Judaism. That they were ethnically Jewish, does nothing to help your premise.

They did not come out of Judaism. The book of Acts proves that...plus everything Paul wrote. People really do miss most of what they are reading in scripture. Sad.

Ken Rank · Jun 4, 2015

Messy said:
Maybe it's already written on our heart, but our mind needs to be renewed by the Word of God.
Ephesians 4
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ

If the work is done Messy, then we would need to teach and all would know YHWH. That just isn't the case... so, reevaluate the verse. Wait on God for an answer. Be blessed!

SpiritPsalmist · Jun 4, 2015

Steeno7 said:
Christianity is not the religion of Judaism.

Agreed. Christianity today is WAY off from what Yeshua and ALL the Apostles and the early believers believed and practiced.

Ken Rank · Jun 4, 2015

Netzari777 said:
Paul's first missionary journey was not until 10+ years after the resurrection. Until then, virtually all the believers in the Messiah were Hebrews. When the 3,000 were added on Pentecost they were all Hebrews on the annual pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Because they had been scattered to different parts of the known world, they adopted the local languages.

Pentecost, or more accurately, shavu'ot, is celebrated as the day Moses came down Mt Sinai with the Torah.
It is a required pilgrimage. Deuteronomy 16:16

Acts 21:20 in English says, "Many thousands of Jews believed and remained zealous for the Torah." However, "many thousands" is the word Murias, it is the word for 10,000 and it is in PLURAL form... which means a minimum of 20,000. The population of Jerusalem at that time was around 80,000 and 25% believed Yeshua was messiah AND remained keeping the Torah. The common dispensational teaching is that the Jews rejected him... some did, not all, by FAR. So in the first century the faith was Jewish, it believed on him AND kept the Torah. That answer a Revelation verse that for some seems out of place. It says, "They have the testimony of Yeshua AND keep the commandments." Just like the Jews in the first century.

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