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I don't know what your comment is in ref to, but there is nothing new under the sun. (Ecc 1:9)
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I don't know what your comment is in ref to, but there is nothing new under the sun. (Ecc 1:9)Can God do a new thing?
I don't know what your comment is in ref to
Well, you brought in that, "God does not change", why? And what relevance do you think that has to the OP?
There's a movement afoot that goes by several names and covers several shades of meaning. The most descriptive name is Hebrew Roots. Some of you will be familiar with this movement, some may be members, some may be opposed. I am curious to find out more about it and about what is right or wrong about its teaching. Please offer your views and if you have backing from holy scripture please include it.
Hebrew Roots has nothing at all to do with being of Jewish decent. It is the recognition that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, and the realization that the Old Testament is as much scripture and valuable as the New Testament. Until Constantine, (the real first pope), founded the religion that was to become the Roman Catholic Church those who were called Christians were actually messianic believers,(Jews and Gentiles), who understood the foundation of Christianity. When Paul said that all scripture is God breathed the New Testament had not been compiled or even fully written, so he was referring to the Old Testament, and he called it profitable for doctrine, teaching and reproof. The lessons of the Old Testament pointed to the same God as New Testament, and the writers of the New Testament assumed an understanding of the scriptures in the writings that were to become the New Testament.
The OP asked what we thought was right about the Hebrew Roots teaching and my reply was "that God is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever". Sounds pretty relevent to the OP to me.
Jesus did not come to abrogate or do away with or erase anything. He became everything. He embodied "all of the above." He, Himself, literally fulfilled in every aspect of His Being the imperatives of the Hebrew religion. No longer were religious imperatives in place. HE was the sole imperative. How do we acknowledge that? Romans 10:8-13.
If you would like to hear a sermon on the Hebrew Roots movement, with lots of scripture, here is Pastor Mike Hoggard:
He has done several programmes on this subject. I'd be interested to hear what others think of his position.
Frogster: You suggest that Paul did not go to the temple for 17 years. Did you notice in Acts 20:16 Paul sailed past Ephesus and hurried to be at Jerusalem for the day of Pentecost. It does not say whether he made it that time, but that was Paul's intent. Paul said, " I am a pharisee of pharisees." Paul did not say he "was" a pharisee.Gosh, Paul did not even go to temple for 17 years.
Gal 4:12. right from Paul! he too was not living out 'Jewish roots"
New Living Translation
Dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to live as I do in freedom from these things, for I have become like you Gentiles--free from those laws. You did not mistreat me when I first preached to you.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
I beg you, brothers: Become like me, for I also became like you. You have not wronged me;
Amplified Bible
4:12 Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].
This is a good summation. Those that say, "I live only in the NT" are ignorant of the fact that of the 7967 NT verses, the OT is at least "referenced" 2606 times. I realize some websites claim only 250+ OT quotes in the NT, but that does not take into account partial quotes and inferences whose context is clearly drawing from an OT passage. So the "NT Christian" is really walking in the OT, unknowingly, 32.7% of the time. Numbers aside, the bottom line is simply that messiah was Hebraic as was the face of the faith until after the Bar Khokba revolt of 134AD. After that, when the remaining Jewish Christians who didn't leave when the Temple was destroyed, left, the faith quickly developed a Greek face and by 150, Sunday was the majority rule and decrees began to be passed to make the faith appear less "Jewish." Hebrew Roots is Christians looking to find their way back to that pre-Greek face... to consider the Scripture through the paradigm that the first century Christian might have used. And when you do that... the context does change. Yeshua is still messiah and salvation is still by grace... but a funny thing happens.... you learn to appreciate more deeply the things he did for us.
Blessings.
Ken
1 Corinthians 9Gosh, Paul did not even go to temple for 17 years.
Gal 4:12. right from Paul! he too was not living out 'Jewish roots"
New Living Translation
Dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to live as I do in freedom from these things, for I have become like you Gentiles--free from those laws. You did not mistreat me when I first preached to you.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
I beg you, brothers: Become like me, for I also became like you. You have not wronged me;
Amplified Bible
4:12 Brethren, I beg of you, become as I am [free from the bondage of Jewish ritualism and ordinances], for I also have become as you are a Gentile]. You did me no wrong [in the days when I first came to you; do not do it now].
If we are to force "fulfill" to mean that once a certain thing is "fulfilled" that we no longer have to do it, then we will quickly become a people who will recreate God in whatever image is tolerable to us. Oh, wait... many already are!
So what part of the Jewish-Roots movement do you think that Jim Staley of Passion For Truth ministries occupies?Thayer and Liddell-Scott Greek Lexicons provide an additional definition of pleroo (fulfill) which I paraphrase by saying it means "He came to walk it out in such a way that showed us all what God expects." Unparaphrased:
2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
If we are to force "fulfill" to mean that once a certain thing is "fulfilled" that we no longer have to do it, then we will quickly become a people who will recreate God in whatever image is tolerable to us. Oh, wait... many already are!
The commandments that Jesus asked the faithful to keep are the ones he gave; namely love one another as I have loved you and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. He wasn't asking the faithful to keep Torah. And he said those things to Jews; to the twelve apostles.I have watched a few, and others like him... I believe him to be sincere and wanting to do for the Lord as he understands, but this pastor does not really know what a person like me believes. The assumption is always "works unto salvation" and that is just a doctrine I abhor. If we could work our way unto salvation, we wouldn't need Yeshua. That said, nothing I just said abrogates the commandments. He said himself, "If you love me keep my commandments" and the words he spoke, he said, were the Father's words! That is why John wrote, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." Just NOT unto salvation. We do not work to be saved.... but the saved are supposed to work!Blessings!
Hebrew Roots has nothing at all to do with being of Jewish decent. It is the recognition that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, and the realization that the Old Testament is as much scripture and valuable as the New Testament. Until Constantine, (the real first pope), founded the religion that was to become the Roman Catholic Church those who were called Christians were actually messianic believers,(Jews and Gentiles), who understood the foundation of Christianity. When Paul said that all scripture is God breathed the New Testament had not been compiled or even fully written, so he was referring to the Old Testament, and he called it profitable for doctrine, teaching and reproof. The lessons of the Old Testament pointed to the same God as New Testament, and the writers of the New Testament assumed an understanding of the scriptures in the writings that were to become the New Testament.
Jesus is the same, but the Old cov is gone. Heb 10:9.The OP asked what we thought was right about the Hebrew Roots teaching and my reply was "that God is the SAME, yesterday, today, and forever". Sounds pretty relevent to the OP to me. What about you trying to start an argument on the way people answer the OP question? How is that relevent to the OP?
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