Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

MoreCoffee · Jun 5, 2015

Frogster said:
people were talking about how somehow the old cov is forever, but the text says grace is for all ages, and through the church, not Israel, not an old abolished cov, that lost it's glory, the glory is in the church forever.

Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 3:21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen

It is an error to teach that the covenant made at Sinai binds the people forever when it is fulfilled in Christ (Matt 5:17) and having fulfilled the Law Christ inherited its promises but what is far more significant is that Christ is the seed to whom God's promised blessings are given (Gal 3:16 and 2Cor 1:20) so when false teachers try to make a hole in the grace of God through which the law can creep into the church and rob the faithful of their freedom in Christ (Gal 2:4). The faithful know to reject this error and that is why this teaching about an eternal obligation to keep the law is error and heresy.

Netzari777 · Jun 5, 2015

Steeno7 said:
You don't seem to understand the difference between the religion of Judaism and a person being ethnically a Jew.

Nothing in my post related that distinction. But, if an attempt at an insult was your aim, you achieved it.

ToBeLoved · Jun 5, 2015

Netzari777 said:
It is quite a stretch to say "most Christians" have read and studied the Old Testament in detail. If that were true, they would know that any prophet who said not to keep the Commandments should be stoned to death. Yet, they insist that Jesus did just that.

If it were true, they would know that erecting and decorating a tree in honor of their God is strictly forbidden. Yet, most do.

If it were true, they would know that the Sabbath is a sign of acknowledging that YHWH is the Creator. Yet, almost none observe it.

If it were true, they would know that all the feasts of YHWH are HIS feasts, and that they outline the works of the Messiah. Yet, most refer to them as "Jewish," which they are not.

If it were true, they would know that YHWH does not change, and that his covenants are everlasting. Most assert that he has changed and that his covenants have ended.

If it were true, they would realize that all strangers who accepted the Elohim of Israel were expected to observe the same laws as the children of Israel.

Yeshua said. "Follow me." If He were sinless, then He was perfectly Torah observant. Following Him would be following His example of keeping the Commandments. 1 John 3:4, Matthew 5:19

Why would not have Jesus let the people stone to death the woman who committed adultery then? That was clearly against the law.

Jesus replied to let him cast the first stone at her that is WITHOUT sin.

How does that fit into your scenario? Keep in mind this is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, perfect in all things.

Messy · Jun 5, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Well, this will be easy. Please post the verse that says the law was written on your heart at salvation.

And, if you want to address this (but please address the other question first)..... are you saved now? I mean, you still age, decay, get disease, die, are confronted with all manner of sin and distractions designed to pull you from God... are you saved NOW or does the Scripture say, "shall be saved?"

We passed from death to life, only our soul must be sanctified and we have to make our call and election sure, our spirit is 100% holy at rebirth and we get a new body.
Ephesians 2 for example
For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God

Hebrews 7
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

2 Corinthians 3:3
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

MoreCoffee · Jun 5, 2015

Netzari777 said:
To begin, they were called Christians in Greek. In Hebrew, they were Netzarim. What modern Christianity has become is a far cry from what it was in the first century.

I do not quite get why in your posts Greek has such a bad reputation. It is as if the new testament is wicked or something because it is written in Greek. God the Holy Spirit inspired the new testament writings to be written in Koine Greek. Isn't that good enough?

Those who pay close attention to Acts 11:26 know that the wording in Greek is carefully crafted to imply that it was in Antioch that the disciples were by divine providence first called Christians.

Messy · Jun 5, 2015

Netzari777 said:
It is quite a stretch to say "most Christians" have read and studied the Old Testament in detail. If that were true, they would know that any prophet who said not to keep the Commandments should be stoned to death. Yet, they insist that Jesus did just that.

If it were true, they would know that erecting and decorating a tree in honor of their God is strictly forbidden. Yet, most do.

If it were true, they would know that the Sabbath is a sign of acknowledging that YHWH is the Creator. Yet, almost none observe it.

If it were true, they would know that all the feasts of YHWH are HIS feasts, and that they outline the works of the Messiah. Yet, most refer to them as "Jewish," which they are not.

If it were true, they would know that YHWH does not change, and that his covenants are everlasting. Most assert that he has changed and that his covenants have ended.

If it were true, they would realize that all strangers who accepted the Elohim of Israel were expected to observe the same laws as the children of Israel.

Yeshua said. "Follow me." If He were sinless, then He was perfectly Torah observant. Following Him would be following His example of keeping the Commandments. 1 John 3:4, Matthew 5:19

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command themto keep the law of Moses.”

The Jerusalem Council
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men andbrethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

MoreCoffee · Jun 5, 2015

Ken Rank said:
Well, this will be easy. Please post the verse that says the law was written on your heart at salvation.
...

The law of Moses is not written on the hearts of the faithful so finding such a verse is not possible but some do misread and misapply the words "the law" and "the commandments" to invariably refer to the law of Moses and the ten commandments. However there is an epistle written on the fleshly tables of the heart (2Cor 3:3) and it has to do with the Lord Jesus Christ and not with Moses.

MoreCoffee · Jun 5, 2015

SpiritPsalmist said:
I'm not. However, I do learn from some of the on-line teachings. I attend a small group that seems to be a mix of Hebrew Roots and Charismatic and not sure what else. LOL I need fellowship and as far as I can find it's the only thing near me that I kinda fit into being that I observe Sabbath and I do believe Torah is still in play and so do they. They do use the name "Yahweh" but it's not insisted that everyone use that name. I've not heard any of the other teachings that you mentioned. God must have me there for a reason. It's better than being a recluse and not going anywhere.

Be careful of the teachers you choose. One poster in this thread gave a URL from the United Church of God web site and that group is a continuation of Herbert W Armstrong's erroneous teachings. That is not to say that everything said and written by those in error is of necessity in error but it is wise to be careful about the sources of a teaching as well as the content of the teaching.

Netzari777 · Jun 5, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
It is an error to teach that the covenant made at Sinai binds the people forever when it is fulfilled in Christ (Matt 5:17) and having fulfilled the Law Christ inherited its promises but what is far more significant is that Christ is the seed to whom God's promised blessings are given (Gal 3:16 and 2Cor 1:20) so when false teachers try to make a hole in the grace of God through which the law can creep into the church and rob the faithful of their freedom in Christ (Gal 2:4). The faithful know to reject this error and that is why this teaching about an eternal obligation to keep the law is error and heresy.

Yeshua fulfilled the Law. He accomplished all that the Law required. That is what fulfilling means. In no other literary context would you accept "fulfilling" to mean "nullifying." In the same passage He said that as long as heaven and earth remained not one jot or tittle will pass from the Law. He said those who do and teach it will be called great. He told others to keep it. Grace is not a license to sin. (Jude 1:3-4) Grace is the empowerment to walk the Torah without condemnation.

(Gal 3:16/2 Cor 1:20) Messiah being the seed of promise has nothing to do with obeying the Commandments.
Gal 2:4 If you read the entire chapter you realize he is referring to the incident where certain men insisted that a man cannot be saved unless he is first circumcised. Again, not related to obedience.

So, you really think it a heresy to obey the will of YHWH?

MoreCoffee · Jun 5, 2015

jiminpa said:
Or maybe we just read our Bibles.

We all read our bibles.

MoreCoffee · Jun 5, 2015

jiminpa said:
Not a myth. The myth is that the followers of constantine's religion are somehow the orthodoxy of the true God.

Your post makes a claim but gives no supporting evidence from credible sources. One cannot expect such claims to go unchallenged. Provide credible historical evidence for the claim if it is available. If there is none then it is a myth and we will not entertain it as truth.

Netzari777 · Jun 5, 2015

Messy said:
And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command themto keep the law of Moses.”

The Jerusalem Council
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men andbrethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

Yea. These men do not have to be circumcised and keep the Torah to get saved. All they have to is accept Yeshua as Messiah. Now, they need to stop fornicating, polluting themselves with idols, eating blood and eating animals that are strangled. Then, they can come learn the Torah in the synagogue on the Sabbath.

It is interesting that two dietary laws were immediately required for attendance at the synagogue.

Messy · Jun 5, 2015

Netzari777 said:
To begin, they were called Christians in Greek. In Hebrew, they were Netzarim. What modern Christianity has become is a far cry from what it was in the first century.

Yes but I don't see MJ's walking around and people getting healed in their shadow like with Peter either.

Netzari777 · Jun 5, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Why would not have Jesus let the people stone to death the woman who committed adultery then? That was clearly against the law.

Jesus replied to let him cast the first stone at her that is WITHOUT sin.

How does that fit into your scenario? Keep in mind this is Jesus Christ, the Son of God, perfect in all things.

The Law gave maximum punishments for offences, i.e., "an eye for an eye." Yeshua was merely pointing out their hypocrisy. After all, the law says that BOTH the man and woman were to be stoned. Where was the man she was with?

Steeno7 · Jun 5, 2015

Netzari777 said:
It is quite a stretch to say "most Christians" have read and studied the Old Testament in detail. If that were true, they would know that any prophet who said not to keep the Commandments should be stoned to death. Yet, they insist that Jesus did just that.

If it were true, they would know that erecting and decorating a tree in honor of their God is strictly forbidden. Yet, most do.

If it were true, they would know that the Sabbath is a sign of acknowledging that YHWH is the Creator. Yet, almost none observe it.

If it were true, they would know that all the feasts of YHWH are HIS feasts, and that they outline the works of the Messiah. Yet, most refer to them as "Jewish," which they are not.

If it were true, they would know that YHWH does not change, and that his covenants are everlasting. Most assert that he has changed and that his covenants have ended.

If it were true, they would realize that all strangers who accepted the Elohim of Israel were expected to observe the same laws as the children of Israel.

Yeshua said. "Follow me." If He were sinless, then He was perfectly Torah observant. Following Him would be following His example of keeping the Commandments. 1 John 3:4, Matthew 5:19

Just more anti-Christian rhetoric confirming what we have been saying about HRM.

Ken Rank · Jun 5, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
The law of Moses is not written on the hearts of the faithful so finding such a verse is not possible but some do misread and misapply the words "the law" and "the commandments" to invariably refer to the law of Moses and the ten commandments. However there is an epistle written on the fleshly tables of the heart (2Cor 3:3) and it has to do with the Lord Jesus Christ and not with Moses.

So in Jeremiah 31:33-34 we are not talking about God's Torah, we are talking about something else? This in light of Ezekiel 11:19?

Steeno7 · Jun 5, 2015

Netzari777 said:
Nothing in my post related that distinction. But, if an attempt at an insult was your aim, you achieved it.

Ummmm, that's the point, your problem is that you do not maintain that distinction.

MoreCoffee · Jun 5, 2015

Ken Rank said:
That is what is says, the Greek is anomia which literally is "outside of" or "without" ... law. It isn't speaking of civil law because the concerns of the Kingdom are not what happens within the confines of a secular government.

Sin is lawlessness (1John 3:4) is not a reference to the law of Moses. Below is a commentary on the verse it is informative and scholarly.

1 John 3:4

As so often, the Apostle emphasises his statement by giving the opposite case, and not the simple opposite, but an expansion of it. Instead of saying ‘every one that hath not this hope’ he says every one that doeth sin. The Authorised Version not only obscures this antithesis by changing ‘every man’ to ‘whosoever’, but also the contrast between ‘doing righteousness’ (1Jn 2:29) and ‘doing sin’ by changing from ‘do’ to ‘commit’. This contrast is all the more marked in the Greek because both words have the article; ‘doeth the righteousness’, ‘doeth the sin’.

transgresseth also the law] This is very unfortunate, destroying the parallelism: Every man that doeth sin, doeth also lawlessness. It is imperative to have the same verb in both clauses and also in 1Jn 2:29: to do sin is to do lawlessness, and this is the opposite of to do righteousness. The one marks the children of God, the other the children of the devil. ‘Lawlessness’ both in English and Greek (ἀνομία) means not the privation of law, but the disregard of it: not the having no law, but the acting as if one had none. This was precisely the case with some of the Gnostic teachers: they declared that their superior enlightenment placed them above the moral law; they were neither the better for keeping it nor the worse for breaking it. Sin and lawlessness, says the Apostle, are convertible terms: they are merely different aspects of the same state. And it is in its aspect of disregard of God’s law that sin is seen to be quite irreconcilable with being a child of God and having fellowship with God. See on 1Jn 5:17.

Note that throughout these verses (3–15) Saint John uses the strong expression, ‘Every man that’ and not simply ‘He that.’ It has been suggested that “in each case where this characteristic form of language occurs there is apparently a reference to some who had questioned the application of a general principle in particular cases” (Westcott): comp. 1Jn 2:23; 1Jn 2:29, 1Jn 4:7, 1Jn 5:1; 1Jn 5:4; 1Jn 5:18; 2Jn 1:9.

Netzari777 · Jun 5, 2015

Messy said:
Yes but I don't see MJ's walking around and people getting healed in their shadow like with Peter either.

Well, if you're not there...

Messy · Jun 5, 2015

Netzari777 said:
Yea. These men do not have to be circumcised and keep the Torah to get saved. All they have to is accept Yeshua as Messiah. Now, they need to stop fornicating, polluting themselves with idols, eating blood and eating animals that are strangled. Then, they can come learn the Torah in the synagogue on the Sabbath.

It is interesting that two dietary laws were immediately required for attendance at the synagogue.

Well you get kicked out of our church if you live in those sins, but I don't see why I should go to a synagogue and can't go to a service from Michael Brown or a Gentile preacher in church. I don't tell a Jew who accepts Yeshua to go to our church if he wants to go to a Messianic meeting. Here they don't meet in a synagogue but in old schools or something just like the churches.

Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

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