heavenly obsession!

[cyberlizard]

On the whole do you feel that the gospel of 'be saved so you can go to heaven' is over-emphasised at the expense of living for God in the here and now?

 

[K2K]

To me, this is a very interesting question. I believe the Scriptures stress the importance of being saved in order to get to heaven, yet also point out the importance of the relationship we can have with God now.

Where as I like to stress the relationship we can have with God now, and point out the importance of being saved in order to get to heaven.

I have seen this difference between me and the scriptures and have thought about the reason; questioning whether I should change my priority. I concluded that clearly the Scriptures (God) is right to stress the importance of being saved inorder to get to heaven. The amount of time we are going to spend here in the fleshy body is almost nill when compared to eternity. Yet I havn't changed my approach because getting saved is obtain though the relationship.

So I put the relationship first because I know it gives results directly in salvation, and provide clear benifits now.

For example:

I have seen a reference to the benifits being set up in an order of ESPN. E - eternal life, S - sins forgiven, P - personal relationship, N - God never leaves of forsakes.

I felt it would be better to have it PENS. Thereby putting P - the personal relationship, before E - eternal life.

And I took my idea to my Lord, and jokingly asked if it shouldn't be PENS instead of ESPEN. He responded instantly. He came across kind of laughing also, and explained that He appriciated what I was saying, and acknowledge that He understood that I live as if it was PENS, but told me that ESPN was the correct way to approach an unbeliever.

What I got out of my conversation with the Lord, was that while I fully appriciated the value of the personal relationship with the Lord, unbelievers wouldn't appreciate the value of that relationship. So the correct approach to an unbeliever is to stress the Eternal life part of the gospel, because that is what they can best understand.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

On the whole do you feel that the gospel of 'be saved so you can go to heaven' is over-emphasised at the expense of living for God in the here and now?

I don't think there is such a thing as "be saved so you go to heaven" or as I've also heard it "fire insurance". Sure its preached but the validity if the message is lacking. Facts are a person who is truly regenerated will by the very nature birthed within them live a life of love and grace. Sure it takes longer for some than others to reach that, but telling someone be saved just so you avoid hell is inaccurate. Unfortunately, and I'm being brutally honest, I have lead a couple to the sinner's prayer by such methods. I hope they were sincere in their faith and really are saved.

 

[AbbaLove]

On the whole do you feel that the gospel of 'be saved so you can go to heaven' is over-emphasised at the expense of living for God in the here and now?

Your wording pretty much sums up a common Jewish perspective of the difference between Christianity and Judaism. And in some respects you’re not too far off base. Your wording ‘be saved so you can go to heaven’ is an oversimplification of what was once more typical of a traditional conservative Baptist message. A hundred years ago their preaching was closer to “be saved so you don’t go to hell.”

Mankind’s righteousness, no matter how seemingly good (e.g. Job) still comes up short. Three thousand years of on-again/off-again obedience/disobedience to God, and one another should be sufficient proof that fallen man failed to measure up to God's standard (commandments) for his own well-being.

Deuteronomy 27:26
"Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out." Then all the people shall say, "Amen!"

Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

The only possible Way to keep God’s Torah(Teaching) Law is to be born again, Spirit-filled with a renewed mind having died to self so loving one another is not a struggle. The only Way for man to not get tripped up following God’s most important commandment is to surrender your all to God. To be born again having His abiding presence indwelling your inner being. This is God’s Most Precious Gift. Only then is it possible to "Go and sin no more." Sin being intentional iniquity.

Deuteronomy 6:4-7
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.
7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.

Luke 10:25-28
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

John 13:33-35 (His final teaching to disciples on Passover)
33 “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Matthew 13:44-50
44 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls,
46 who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,
48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

 

[K2K]

I don't think there is such a thing as "be saved so you go to heaven" or as I've also heard it "fire insurance". Sure its preached but the validity if the message is lacking. Facts are a person who is truly regenerated will by the very nature birthed within them live a life of love and grace. Sure it takes longer for some than others to reach Itthat, but telling someone be saved just so you avoid hell is inaccurate. Unfortunately, and I'm being brutally honest, I have lead a couple to the sinner's prayer by such methods. I hope they were sincere in their faith and really are saved.

Jn 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life.

Jn 10:28 I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hands

It's not fire insurance, it's a relationship!! So we need to listen to Him by faith, and not depend on paper. If you are His sheep you do that, and you have eternal life!! And no one will snatch you out of His hand.

If we are sincere in our faith, we indeed listen to Him, and we follow His voice. I know what that means to me. I actualy hear Him speak to me in words. It's a spiritual voice, but I can pick up words.

Still, I came forward in a church when I was ten. Not because I heard a word, but rather I felt a neat feeling when the pastor made an alter call. Was that Him talking to me. It could have been. Though I now can pick up the Lord's voice in words, I still often get busy and pick it up as an unction or feeling. Then I stop and ask "Lord, did you say", and hear it in words.

So I have asked myself, 'Was I saved when I was 10, or when at 40 He came into my life with words?'

This last weekend I prayed with people who responded to the alter call at my church. The Lord asked me to volunteer for that task. He told me that what I was doing was not the harvest, but the planting of seeds. He specifically told me that what I was doing was comparable to putting a little dirt over seeds after planting them. The little dirt over seeds when planting, helps protect and helps them grow, but I guess not all seed come up.

So were those I prayed for saved? Where they now sheep who were hearing His voice? I honestly don't know. I do know that I hear His voice and I am saved. I have told Him that I wasn't sure I was going to heaven, He instantly corrected me saying that it was done, and has reminded me that nobody is going to get me out of His hands.

He has done things like, giving me visions of my place in heaven. He once took my spirit a few inches out of my body to where I could see the back of my head and then ask me "Karl, do you think I can take you anywhere I want?" Well, since He took my spirit a few inches out of my body, I have to think He can get me to heaven. And like Paul, I know a man taken up into the third heaven, whether in the spirit of not I do not know, but he saw a throne and the Ancient of Age before angels.

"no one will snatch them out of My hands" Jesus Christ said that. So who is going to deny it?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

I heard some big shot Charismatic on Sid Roth once brag about a similar vision where he saw the Father in Heaven. I reject both as unscriptural.

As for the rest of your post I'm not sure if I agree or not it seems you agree with my post but then again it doesn't I don't know.