We live in a world of constant flux. Our lives revolve around the desire of change. We change our hair and our clothes. We change our furniture. We change our wants. We grow weary of work and desire change. Relationships become stagnant and the remedy is often change. The universe is alive with change. An ever expanding universe. The birth and destruction of countless stars and galaxies is a testament to change. In this world of constant change, why would we yearn for an eternity of utter boredom in heaven? To worship and praise an almighty being for ever and ever hardly seems plausible to me. Why do we choose to believe in heaven? A place that goes against our being and our existence. God created us in his own image. All that exist was created by God. This world of change was created in flux. Are we to believe that our final destination is this Heaven? Are we to believe that God would create such a place that goes against the nature of his creation, the nature of man?
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Heaven??? Why would you want to go to there??
- Thread starter hartmanpeter
- Start date
Zaac
Well-Known Member
hartmanpeter said:
We yearn for Jesus Christ, not for change. It's kinda difficult to explain to someone who doesn't desire the same thing. You want the stuff that is measured by the limited time of this world. We desire the eternity of a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is going to set up His Kingdom on this earth. It shall not pass away. We who are His will get to enjoy His new earth in His presence for all eternity. While those who don't belong to Him will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity. OUCH!
It's kinda like saying that we'll be in the Bahamas while you're stuck in Antartica with no food or shelter with nothing but some Bermuda shorts and a tshirt and no shoes on for eternity.
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hartmanpeter said:
The alternative is death or non existence. There is no change there either. Why would you want to be dead?
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Heaven sounds like a nice place to visit but I'm not sure I'd want to live there. Pain and pleasure, good and evil, joy and misery, constant change in a universe of scarcity is what being alive is all about.
Non-existence doesn't sound so bad, once your ego can get past the idea. I like sleeping, but I like waking up too.
I might be wrong about this. I might be able to get used to eternal happiness.
Non-existence doesn't sound so bad, once your ego can get past the idea. I like sleeping, but I like waking up too.
I might be wrong about this. I might be able to get used to eternal happiness.
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nadroj1985
A bittersweet truth: sum, ergo cogito
elman said:
Assuming death is a state of nonexistence, one cannot be dead. When someone dies, they cease to be.
So, it makes no sense to talk about how happy a person is with their state of being dead. There is no person to be happy.
I tend to agree with the OP on this issue. If someone is ever really and perfectly content, it seems to me that at that precise moment they can no longer exist. Heaven, as David Byrne tells us, is a place where nothing ever happens. I would change that around a bit and say heaven is nothingness, which I suppose means that the Christians agree with me about what happens after death
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I will never believe that Heaven or being part of Christ Kingdom could ever be boring. I see an eternity of learning and growing closer in the knowledge of the Creator. We will rule and reign with him forever in new creations and new adventures that will never grow old.
I don't see God ever stopping in his creations of new worlds and those who will inhabit them,whoever or whatever they will be. God will teach us and love us like no man has ever dreamed before. We will see,hear,feel and taste things that will bring such joy that no human words will be able to describe them.
I don't see God ever stopping in his creations of new worlds and those who will inhabit them,whoever or whatever they will be. God will teach us and love us like no man has ever dreamed before. We will see,hear,feel and taste things that will bring such joy that no human words will be able to describe them.
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Laurel Crowned
Veteran
The intial question posed by the OP gave me pause, which was why I stopped in to check out the train of thought. I have had questions about heaven and why I'd want to go there for a very long time, but not for the same reasons as the OP.
I LOVE the Lord now, but my life before I met him was completely pointless. Yet something in me wanted more. With each person that he created, God, built an "eternity in their hearts" that longs to be reunited with him... whether the person is aware of it or not.... on a very basic level, kind of like the instinct to return home. Something in me longed to be united with God before I was even aware of this yearning. I am no longer the hardcore atheist I used to be.
Heaven? Why go? For me my confusion stems from the inability of my very finite mind to grasp the complexities of an infinite eternity. I can't fathom what heaven will look like or get my mind around the fact that there will be no tears in heaven. If people whom I have loved on Earth are not in heaven... how can I not cry for them? How can I not miss them?
Not being able to comprehend all the complexities of an eternity of peace and joy doesn't mean that I don't want to go or that I shouldn't go. A world without hate, racism, and any other type of "ism" does not seem like a bad world to inhabit. From what I've read of scripture, there is nothing that suggest that change will not occur, just that there will be no evil. God is the designer and creator of change: seasons change, the ocean changes, the planets move... I doubt that these things and other changes like them will cease to occur.
Again, I can't explain or understand heaven... but if God says it's a cool place to be... then I want to be there.
I LOVE the Lord now, but my life before I met him was completely pointless. Yet something in me wanted more. With each person that he created, God, built an "eternity in their hearts" that longs to be reunited with him... whether the person is aware of it or not.... on a very basic level, kind of like the instinct to return home. Something in me longed to be united with God before I was even aware of this yearning. I am no longer the hardcore atheist I used to be.
Heaven? Why go? For me my confusion stems from the inability of my very finite mind to grasp the complexities of an infinite eternity. I can't fathom what heaven will look like or get my mind around the fact that there will be no tears in heaven. If people whom I have loved on Earth are not in heaven... how can I not cry for them? How can I not miss them?
Not being able to comprehend all the complexities of an eternity of peace and joy doesn't mean that I don't want to go or that I shouldn't go. A world without hate, racism, and any other type of "ism" does not seem like a bad world to inhabit. From what I've read of scripture, there is nothing that suggest that change will not occur, just that there will be no evil. God is the designer and creator of change: seasons change, the ocean changes, the planets move... I doubt that these things and other changes like them will cease to occur.
Again, I can't explain or understand heaven... but if God says it's a cool place to be... then I want to be there.
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Heaven is only bliss for those who want to be there, and God will not force those who don't want to be there to go there. If someone has choosen to reject God through their earthly life, then not only would it be going against the free will God has given us if He were to force us into Heaven, if would torture to spend an eternity with someone they rejected.
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hartmanpeter said:
I would take issue with some of the things you said here. Regarding the universe, it is true that things are constantly happening within it. However certain mathematical and scientific laws govern and give an unchanging aspect to everything that happens in the universe. In regards to social change, I agree. We are constantly longing for change, looking for the next best thing. God is ultimate, unchanging. He provides the stability we long for, and while this may sound odd, it is only in Christ where we are truely free. I can't wait to spend an eternity with this never changing, consistant God. He is the only thing that I can count on to bring stability to this crazy thing we call life. Thus, to me, Heaven will be not only bliss, but pure joy.
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M
Matt Never Existed
Guest
1. Its good you've mentioned that the universe is still expanding and more is being created. If you read the beginning of the bible, you'll never read that God said "Stop".hartmanpeter said:
2. Heaven, I believe, won't be "Utterly Boring". See #3 for my reasoning.
3. You are probably thinking 'praise' and 'worship' are sitting around, singing to god, praying, etc. All of those things are part of what it is, but the most important part is living life. Using the time and the things God has given you to the fullest. God has created and is still creating all of existance, what makes you think he doesn't want us to see the things he's made/making?
4. Man was created for God, to be with him, in 'Eden'. I believe what we have here on earth is a temporary home, and yes, we should enjoy and protect what we have here. But I don't think I was created for the chaos we have now.
~shrug~ But thats just what I think..
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Gods_princess
Well-Known Member
i rather have enturnal live in heaven with Jesus doing something i like doing (dancing and singing) for him than to be with satan, it sends and shiver down my spine when i think how close i came to do that
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Dogzilla said:
I agree with you, for the most part, Dogzilla. Visit? Yes. Eternity? No. We were created to feel all kinds of emotion. I doubt that God would limit us to half of what we are. Pain and sadness are a part of being human, of being alive. It allows us to appreciate the good even more. It doesn't make sense that it would just all be gone forever.
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ScaRZ said:
Very well put! I believe your statement to be closer to the reality of afterlife. Creations of new worlds and the pursuit of knowledge. But may I ask, what makes you believe that all this will happen after death in Heaven? In my study of the bible and christianity haven't shown evidence that they believe this theory. (I'm assuming you are a christian. Forgive me if my assumption is incorrect.)
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Laurel Crowned said:The intial question posed by the OP gave me pause, which was why I stopped in to check out the train of thought. I have had questions about heaven and why I'd want to go there for a very long time, but not for the same reasons as the OP.
I LOVE the Lord now, but my life before I met him was completely pointless. Yet something in me wanted more. With each person that he created, God, built an "eternity in their hearts" that longs to be reunited with him... whether the person is aware of it or not.... on a very basic level, kind of like the instinct to return home. Something in me longed to be united with God before I was even aware of this yearning. I am no longer the hardcore atheist I used to be.
Heaven? Why go? For me my confusion stems from the inability of my very finite mind to grasp the complexities of an infinite eternity. I can't fathom what heaven will look like or get my mind around the fact that there will be no tears in heaven. If people whom I have loved on Earth are not in heaven... how can I not cry for them? How can I not miss them?
Not being able to comprehend all the complexities of an eternity of peace and joy doesn't mean that I don't want to go or that I shouldn't go. A world without hate, racism, and any other type of "ism" does not seem like a bad world to inhabit. From what I've read of scripture, there is nothing that suggest that change will not occur, just that there will be no evil. God is the designer and creator of change: seasons change, the ocean changes, the planets move... I doubt that these things and other changes like them will cease to occur.
Again, I can't explain or understand heaven... but if God says it's a cool place to be... then I want to be there.
It's great to hear from someone who has had the same questions and searched for there answers. The post you posted made a lot of sense to me. I especially liked this: [/QUOTE]"For me my confusion stems from the inability of my very finite mind to grasp the complexities of an infinite eternity."[/QUOTE]
I've accepted that I don't know or understand what Heaven will be like. I'm questionning, however, what I've been told: That in Heaven, we will praise and worship the Lord for all eternity (If my premise is wrong, feel free to correct me.) And based on that idea of Heaven, I find it in plausible and unwanted by me.
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4Him88 said:
I find it kind of amusing when I hear someone say that God will not force you to do anything. I find what the christian God is doing similar to blackmail. "No, you can do whatever you want. You don't have to obey me. I'm not forcing you...Oh, by the way, if you don't obey, you'll suffer for all eternity but no pressure! It's your choice.
I will not be forced to go to Heaven. I will be forced to go to Hell.
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Matt Never Existed
Guest
Hell n. A state of separation from God; exclusion from God's presence.hartmanpeter said:
Story time!!
~~~~~
Bob is an athiest. Lets say he holds the same views as the quote in this posts say. He doesn't believe in anything the christian religion teaches, and doesn't believe he'll end up in Hell.
Bob dies. The moment after his death, he finds himself standing before a throne, and comes face to 'face' with God, as described in the bible. There are no words to explain what God is like. Bob is overwhelmed by just his presence. A unbelieveable sense of love, respect, athority, holiness, and just awesomeness washes over Bob. He realizes that this being, the creator and sustainer of all existance, loves him unconditionally. If Bob could cry, I think he would.
A man walks towards Bob, and this man seems to 'generate' the same feelings and emotions that God does. Bob can see the holes in his wrists and feet, where nails were driven through his flesh to a wooden cross. I think if Bob wasn't already, he would be on his knees, crying. This man comes and stand before Bob, and simply looks at Bob. He has such a sadness in his face. Tears are streaming down this mans face as well, and he begins to speak. "Bob, my son, my beautiful creation. You were fearfully and wonderfully made; by the hands of my Father you were knit together inside of your mothers womb. In your life on earth, you were given chances beyond measure to acknowledge our existance, to accept my death on the cross for your sins, for this very moment. But you did not. You turned away from us, closed your eyes, and refused to believe in anything your 'rational' mind couldn't explain. You chose to live a life void of our existance, and shall do the same forever." This man turns away from Bob, and walks back to the throne, visibly weeping because of what he just had to say.
And in the next moment, the throne and the man are gone. All traces of them have completely disappeared, except for Bob's memory of them. He knows now, without a doubt, that he is loved by God, and that is when hell really begins. Bob also knows that now, for the rest of eternity, he shall never again feel the love and greatness of God. No matter what he says or does now, God has made his judgement, and is respecting Bob's choice to live a life on earth without him. To discribe what Bob is feeling, imagine you were just given a taste of the greatest thing to ever exist. This thing completes you, and for a moment, you knew absolute happiness. Now imagine how it would feel to have that thing taken away from you, and you know you'll never, ever, have any of it again. Compared to it, everything else doesn't even exist. On a scale of one to ten, ten being the greatest thing ever, this thing is Infinity. It is the highest number the human mind can fathom times itself infinitly.
And Bob shall never be in the presence of God ever again. There is no fire, no brimstone, no red guys with pitchforks. The only torture is that Bob has nothing but his thoughts, and his thoughts are only of what he is missing.
~~~~
~End of my story~
Does that make sense?
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4Him88 said:I would take issue with some of the things you said here. Regarding the universe, it is true that things are constantly happening within it. However certain mathematical and scientific laws govern and give an unchanging aspect to everything that happens in the universe. In regards to social change, I agree. We are constantly longing for change, looking for the next best thing. God is ultimate, unchanging. He provides the stability we long for, and while this may sound odd, it is only in Christ where we are truely free. I can't wait to spend an eternity with this never changing, consistant God. He is the only thing that I can count on to bring stability to this crazy thing we call life. Thus, to me, Heaven will be not only bliss, but pure joy.
I do agree that there are some mathematical and scientific laws that are unchanging, at least for the time being.
We don't all crave stability and we are not free in Christ. We are delivered from "evil" and eternal damnation but we are not free. We are confined to the rules of our King. Allow me to ask you, what do you think we'll do in Heaven for all eternity? I know you can't know for sure, I'm simply asking you you think it will be like.
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Matt Never Existed said:1. Its good you've mentioned that the universe is still expanding and more is being created. If you read the beginning of the bible, you'll never read that God said "Stop".
2. Heaven, I believe, won't be "Utterly Boring". See #3 for my reasoning.
3. You are probably thinking 'praise' and 'worship' are sitting around, singing to god, praying, etc. All of those things are part of what it is, but the most important part is living life. Using the time and the things God has given you to the fullest. God has created and is still creating all of existance, what makes you think he doesn't want us to see the things he's made/making?
4. Man was created for God, to be with him, in 'Eden'. I believe what we have here on earth is a temporary home, and yes, we should enjoy and protect what we have here. But I don't think I was created for the chaos we have now.
~shrug~ But thats just what I think..
I think that your number 3 is closer to the truth. That even after death, God will be creating and we will be exploring. But even exploring won't be enough. Imagine, even after a million trillion years, we'd still just be exploring and existing in the same manner. I can understand that we want the joy and the bliss and to learn about our Lord, but after a million trillion years, we will need to change. That's who we are.
I submit that we were made for this chaos. That we were made to overcome it. That we were made in the image of God and that we are able to do and be much more that can be imagined or written down in the bible. But the idea of become all powerful and all knowing is against the bible. It would appear to most christians as blasphemy. Trying to be like God. As did Lucifer.
What if we're wrong. What if Heaven is not a final destination, but a new plane of existance. A jumping of point to the rest of the universe with it's many levels. What if all of us, "good" or "bad", return to whom we were created by to continue "life".
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