Heaven and Hell

ToddNotTodd said:

I've mentioned several times that I was a Christian. And now from my standpoint, all religious testimony is the same.

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That's your standpoint. And it's a personal one.

God provided One Eternal Constsnt Never Changing Way and Truth.
Not relative selective self professed "truths" and "ways"

Noxot said:

I see no problem with knowing that God works through whatever we happen to be

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regardless if it is a misrepresentation of The Image we were created in?

SteveB28 said:

And yet, your commandments make it very clear that you are to worship no other forms of God?

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Well I'll be!

Noxot said:

... my way to understand the bible is to not think or understand it...

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Riiight...

miknik5 said:

Well I'll be!

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I really don't know what you'll be........I was responding to another person who seems to indicate that it doesn't really matter which deity one worships, because they all somehow funnel into the one god ultimately.

SteveB28 said:

I really don't know what you'll be........I was responding to another person who seems to indicate that it doesn't really matter which deity one worships, because they all somehow funnel into the one god ultimately.

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Yep and I liked your response to that post.

At least YOU understood that we are not to worship our own constructed images

miknik5 said:

That's your standpoint. And it's a personal one.

God provided One Eternal Constsnt Never Changing Way and Truth.
Not relative selective self professed "truths" and "ways"

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Or not.

The point is that all religions have their version of "The Truth". And without evidence that verifies it, there's no reason for anyone to listen to any of it.

So you could be talking about any god and it would mean the same.

ToddNotTodd said:

Or not.

The point is that all religions have their version of "The Truth". And without evidence that verifies it, there's no reason for anyone to listen to any of it.

So you could be talking about any god and it would mean the same.

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Without the Spirit of Truth, yes many will profess many god(s)

And do

miknik5 said:

Without the Spirit of Truth, yes many will profess many god(s)

And do

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And people of other religions say you don't have the spirit of truth. Without the ability to justify your position, there's no reason to believe you.

I'm not sure what your point is.

ToddNotTodd said:

And people of other religions say you don't have the spirit of truth. Without the ability to justify your position, there's no reason to believe you.

I'm not sure what your point is.

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The point Thst o have been saying from the beginning. The Truth will remain the Truth

There is only One God
And by His sending His Son into the world He has shut up the mouths of every other whispering spirit who whiskers and mutters everything and anything but the Hidden Wisdom of God

Because many do profess to have god(s) but deny The son

He who denies the Son denies the Csther who sent Him
Thst man does not receive gods testimony which He has given of His Son and in a sense calls God a liar

But the man who receives Gods testimony sets to his own (spirit) seal that Gods Word is Truth because it is The Spirit(Thay witness in the belieber) who testifies with our spirit to the Truth of The Word of God

And The TRUTH will remain the TRUTH
Regardless if one believes or not

Dave RP said:

I'm interested in the various opinions on here of Heaven and Hell, and what the Christian viewpoint is, is there a consensus?

For example - Heaven, is it an actual place, like a planet or is it something undefined, and is eternal life in a body such as we have now or is it purely as a spirit/ soul?

Is life eternal really life eternal?, I mean eternity is a very long time and we cannot conceptualise it, what do Christians think is meant by Life Eternal?

Hell - Does it really exist, is it an actual place or is it where spirits. souls go.

If I go to Hell, is that also for eternity?

I look forward to soem responses, which I shall treat with respect as I am interested in the beliefs and interpretations of Christians.

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Heaven is actually a terrible mistranslation that takes away the intended plural heavens, meaning basically space. The heavens are in this very room in which I'm typing as well as in outer space, and the writers of the New Testament had multiple heavens following spatial lines. The Kingdom of Heaven is better translated Kingdom of the Heavens, the same thing as Kingdom of God, the former referring to the physical space wherein God resides (God is in everything).

Hell is also butchered exegetically, seeing how there's no close transliterative equivalent in English. All you have is the Old Testament Sheol, the abode of the dead where everyone went after they died, which is translated as Hades in the New Testament, and (most relevant to Jesus' use, because this was the term he used almost every single time) Gehenna. What's interesting about Gehenna is that it's a literal place during Jesus' time, referring to what you'd basically call Jerusalem's city dump. Jesus' use of this place is an excellent metaphor for a life lived outside God's realm.

Eternal life is a quality if life, not a matter of length. Basically a life that doesn't die, immutable to change, perfect, complete, etc.

miknik5 said:

The point Thst o have been saying from the beginning. The Truth will remain the Truth

There is only One God
And by His sending His Son into the world He has shut up the mouths of every other whispering spirit who whiskers and mutters everything and anything but the Hidden Wisdom of God

Because many do profess to have god(s) but deny The son

He who denies the Son denies the Csther who sent Him
Thst man does not receive gods testimony which He has given of His Son and in a sense calls God a liar

But the man who receives Gods testimony sets to his own (spirit) seal that Gods Word is Truth because it is The Spirit(Thay witness in the belieber) who testifies with our spirit to the Truth of The Word of God

And The TRUTH will remain the TRUTH
Regardless if one believes or not

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Or not. There's no reason why anyone should believe this, unless you can provide a good reason for anyone to believe this. People in the Philosophy section in particular are going to want good, well reasoned evidence to believe anything anyone says.

If not, it's as if you're just speaking gibberish.

miknik5 said:

regardless if it is a misrepresentation of The Image we were created in?

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Opinion.

SteveB28 said:

And yet, your commandments make it very clear that you are to worship no other forms of God?

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miknik5 said:

regardless if it is a misrepresentation of The Image we were created in?

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SteveB28 said:

I really don't know what you'll be........I was responding to another person who seems to indicate that it doesn't really matter which deity one worships, because they all somehow funnel into the one god ultimately.

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if we knew God we would not worship images but if all we can handle are images then that is what God works with. the closer we are to God the closer we are to freedom, truth, goodness, wisdom and love. since all humans have a subjective mind and not all equally participate in God it gives large room for various perceptions and expressions of God.

in the wilderness some people worshiped the bronze serpent idol and it saved them but in the holy land when the people worshiped it they were sinning against God. that is an example of a real progression of coming to know God. at some times some things are acceptable and at other times they are not. this depends on the conditions of the soul and many other factors.

so laws in general can never be fulfilled outside of God. only in God is the law truly fulfilled.

God is heaven or everlasting life. hell is a lesser state of being that is due to ignorance and rejection of God. in our reality it is often pretty plain that goodness is good and evil is evil. it does not take a genius to realize that evil is something that makes life into something not worth having... but it takes a mad man to think that evil is the solution for reality.

There's only ONE who is the exact representation of GOD and the full radiance of HIS GLORY

But you are free to profess yourself

I'm not
Nor do I want to

miknik5 said:

There's only ONE who is the exact representation of GOD and the full radiance of HIS GLORY

But you are free to profess yourself

I'm not
Nor do I want to

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So you claim...........

Noxot said:

if we knew God we would not worship images but if all we can handle are images then that is what God works with. the closer we are to God the closer we are to freedom, truth, goodness, wisdom and love. since all humans have a subjective mind and not all equally participate in God it gives large room for various perceptions and expressions of God.

in the wilderness some people worshiped the bronze serpent idol and it saved them but in the holy land when the people worshiped it they were sinning against God. that is an example of a real progression of coming to know God. at some times some things are acceptable and at other times they are not. this depends on the conditions of the soul and many other factors.

so laws in general can never be fulfilled outside of God. only in God is the law truly fulfilled.

God is heaven or everlasting life. hell is a lesser state of being that is due to ignorance and rejection of God. in our reality it is often pretty plain that goodness is good and evil is evil. it does not take a genius to realize that evil is something that makes life into something not worth having... but it takes a mad man to think that evil is the solution for reality.

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A litany of loopholes and lame excuses.........

SteveB28 said:

So you claim...........

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I'm not the only one who does

God provided the images and representations and lower signs which were simply shadows pointing us to The ONE whom GOD spoke of and planned from the beginning

Dave RP said:

I'm interested in the various opinions on here of Heaven and Hell, and what the Christian viewpoint is, is there a consensus?

For example - Heaven, is it an actual place, like a planet or is it something undefined,

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In the most strict sense "the heavens" describes everything we see when we look up into the sky, it's where the moon, sun, and stars are located from an earth-bound observer. The ancient Hebrews conceived of God as being beyond or above the heavens, an attempt to speak of God as being bigger than and more than the celestial powers we see with our eyes (this was doubly important because Hebrew religion insisted that the worship of celestial powers was the worship of false gods, and that the true God could not be depicted as anything). So, for example we see Solomon's declaration concerning the Temple, "The heavens, not even the highest heavens, can contain You; how much less this house which I have built." Or elsewhere where the Psalmist writes, "The heavens are Your throne, and the earth Your footstool."

So there is this idea that God is always beyond and above the observable world, and so the idea of the "highest heavens" or even just shorthand "the heavens" can be used to refer to God's power and authority in some fashion. By the time we get to the first century we can see that "Heaven" is used somewhat euphemistically for God; in Mark and Luke Jesus proclaims "the kingdom of God" whereas in Matthew the parallels read "kingdom of heaven"--neither refers to a location, the concept of "kingdom" here is not a nation or place, but to the royal power and authority of the one who rules. It can also be translated as "the reign of God", which isn't a place anyone goes, but is the reality of God's reign breaking into the world through the Person and work of Jesus, in Luke Jesus says to a group of hostile religious leaders, "the kingdom does not come with observation...instead the kingdom is in your midst", it is Jesus who as the Messiah is the manifest reality of God-as-king.

Further "Heaven" has from here also been understood to be in some sense "where God is" but thinking of "Heaven" as this place where God dwells is the wrong way to understand that language; it instead means to be with God, perhaps in ways we cannot understand. It's important to keep in mind that in Christian theology God is everywhere, there is no where where God is not.

Finally the closest we have to an idea of "going to heaven" as something that happens after we die comes from a single statement made by St. Paul where he says "to be absent from the body and present with the Lord", that between death and resurrection we are in the presence of Christ. Whatever that means; but this is essentially the basis for conceiving of "life after death" as "going to heaven", it is about being with God in a state of waiting until the resurrection. Which gets us to your next question:

and is eternal life in a body such as we have now or is it purely as a spirit/ soul?

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The historic, normative, and orthodox Christian teaching is that at the conclusion of history, when Christ returns in glory, the dead will be raised bodily. You'll note that in my above statements about heaven I mentioned "between death and resurrection", that's because the whole idea of "going to heaven" is about what we call the intermediate state. "Heaven" is the waiting room, a foretaste of what will be forever. Because in traditional Christian theology we look forward to the renewal and restoration of the whole of creation, "a new heavens and a new earth" where God has made all things new. And so our eternal hope is a resurrected, bodily existence, right here on God's green earth.

There are two equally problematic ideas that have arisen in modern times due to a lack of proper theological information within a number of churches, even mainstream traditional churches.

1. The first problematic idea is that the Christian hope is to go to this "place called heaven" where we will float around as disembodied spirits, on fluffy clouds, strumming harps etc. That's what we might call modern popular religion, but it has no basis in the official teachings and creeds of any of the historic churches (Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant).

2. The second problematic idea is much like the first, only it says that when we get to "heaven" we'll be given these new spiritual bodies where we'll get to trot around on streets of gold.

The problem with both is that it ignores the fundamental teachings of the Christian faith: That there will be a resurrection of the body and eternal life in the age to come, not in some distant blissfuly by-and-by, but in God's renewed, made whole, creation--right here.

So, yes, you'll absolutely find some Christians (wrongly) assert one of those two ideas, but such does not represent what Christians have historically believed for the last two thousand years, consider just for example the Apostles Creed which is read every worship service in Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, and many other Protestant churches which says, "I believe ... in the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting." The original Latin here reads carnis resurrectionem, literally "resurrection of flesh"

Is life eternal really life eternal?, I mean eternity is a very long time and we cannot conceptualise it, what do Christians think is meant by Life Eternal?

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Immortal and incorruptible, unceasing and unending.

I need to go grab a bite to eat, but I'll come back later to try and tackle Hell, which will be a much more complicated topic to engage. Largely because Christianity has been far less dogmatic in its treatment on hell.

-CryptoLutheran