• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

  • The rule regarding AI content has been updated. The rule now rules as follows:

    Be sure to credit AI when copying and pasting AI sources. Link to the site of the AI search, just like linking to an article.

Hearing us in Heaven

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rising_Suns

'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'
Jul 14, 2002
10,836
793
46
Saint Louis, MO
✟39,335.00
Faith
Catholic
The book of Revelation makes it pretty clear that heaven and earth are connected (this is basically what is known as the "Communion of Saints").

For example, (Rev 6:9-10); "When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained (i.e., the martyr'd saints); and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" (Here the saints in heaven are asking God for his mercy on earth. )


And another (Rev 8:3); "Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne."

Here, as you can see, the angels present the prayers of the saints before the throne of God. I can point you to plenty more places in Scripture where such things happen, but only a couple is neccessary.

Blessings,

-Davide
 
Upvote 0

Rising_Suns

'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'
Jul 14, 2002
10,836
793
46
Saint Louis, MO
✟39,335.00
Faith
Catholic
Read this;
.
.
.
.
THE INTERCESSION OF THE SAINTS
". . .we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses . . ." (Hebrews 12:1 - RSV)

What Catholics call the invocation or intercession of the saints means not so much praying to saints, as it does praying with them to God. This devotional practice has strong scriptural warrant, much more than Protestants suppose, since they tend to regard it as idolatrous, without trying to understand the biblical and logical rationale for it. The practice existed with development - from the beginning of the Christianity, and was only questioned at the time of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century. If anyone, then, is to be accused here of introducing a "late tradition," or of "corrupting" Christian doctrine, it must be Protestantism, not Catholicism.


SAINTS IN THE AFTERLIFE ARE AWARE OF EARTHLY AFFAIRS
Dead Christians are unquestionably more alive and holy than we are, since they are with God (Rev 21:27), and they are aware of earthly events (Heb 12:1, 1 Cor 13:9-12). Some have even come back to earth. For example: Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15), Moses and Elijah (Mt 17:1-3), and "many saints" (Mt 27:52-3). In all these instances, much communication, and even dialogue, takes place. How, then, could such discourse be considered unlawful and idolatrous? Obviously, God allowed these occurrences, so therefore He must have condoned them. Such "traffic" between heaven and earth lessens the artificial dichotomy which Protestants create by the unspoken, uncritical assumption that those in the "other world" have nothing to do with us in this world. This is neither biblical nor reasonable, and goes against the Bible's view of the one Body of Christ, which is not sundered by death or anything else (see, e.g., Rom 8:38-39).


SAINTS IN THE AFTERLIFE PRAY AND ACT AS INTERMEDIARIES
In Revelation 6:9-10, "the souls of them that were slain" pray for those on earth, using what is known as an "imprecatory prayer," as in Psalms 35:1, 59:1-17, 139:19, and Jer 12:20 against the wicked and on behalf of the righteous. In Revelation 5:8-9, the "24 elders," usually interpreted as representing the Church (perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles), act as intercessory intermediaries, presenting the "prayers of saints." This is just common sense, provided one will allow the possibility of its occurrence. Saints in heaven are not just sitting on clouds playing harps, as our cultural mishmash religion would have it. No, they are vitally active in prayer on our behalf. Thank God they are!


ANGELS ARE AWARE OF OUR THOUGHTS AND ACT AS INTERMEDIARIES
Angels are joyful over sinners' repentance - an inner change of heart (Lk 5:10), and it appears that they observe us (1 Cor 4:9). Like saints, they offer the "prayers of the saints" to God as intercessory intermediaries (Rev 8:3-4). Even "grace" itself is said to come both from God and the "seven spirits before his throne" (Rev 1:4; cf. 3:1, 4:5, 5:6). Again, this all follows from spiritual common sense. All Protestants agree that angels (excluding the demons) are benevolent and active on our behalf. So why is it so difficult to believe that they might be praying for us? All loving beings (whether angels or humans) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is one way of expressing that love. Why should mere location on one "side" of death rather than the other have any bearing on that? Love demands otherwise.


GUARDIAN ANGELS
Many Protestants, such as Billy Graham, agree with the Catholic belief in Guardian Angels for each person. This doctrine is largely derived from Matthew 18:10: ". . . their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven." Other scriptural indications: Ps 34:7, 91:11, Acts 12:15 and Heb 1:14. If God has provided this supernatural protection for us, we must not neglect it on the illogical grounds that it somehow detracts from the worship of God. It's foolish to throw off any of God's provisions for us simply because they don't fit into our preconceived notions of theology, oftentimes perpetuated by unwitting ignorance of the magnificent heritage of Christian Tradition.


THE VENERATION OF SAINTS
If saints and angels are so holy and so aware of our affairs, why should we not ask them to pray for us, since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (Jas 5:16)? Protestants say that this raises them to the level of God (thus, the charge of idolatry). But they need not be all-knowing, nor perfect, like God, only out of time and glorified, to hear our prayers. We venerate them (particularly Mary) because of their proximity to God - this is not worship or adoration, which is reserved for God only. St. Paul urges us to "imitate" him (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17), as he, in turn, imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1, 1 Thess 1:6), and we are told to honor the "heroes" of the faith (Heb 6:12, 11:1-40, Jas 5:10-11). None of this detracts from the Infinite Glory and Majesty of God in the least. Rather, it enhances it, just as the painter is honored when one admires his masterpiece, and just as the dewdrop can reflect the brightness of the sun.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ94.HTM
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.