Heard an Argument...

[Ricasso]

Earlier today i heard some people at my school discussing (I say discussing...) religion and, being in the UK, it primarily centered on Christianity.

Now I myself don't believe in there being a 'God' or some kind of external force involved, but I also admit that 'Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence' so there is certainly a possibility. I do see there being advantages to people and society of the moral code and general beliefs of religions, being a UK resident primarily Christianity.

Anyway the Christians involved struggled to meet the arguments of the others with what I would call decent answers. But that's not the point of this post. Those arguing against Christianity quoted from the 'Good News Bible' a number of verses

I don't have that bible to hand but I do have another (with different translations but the idea is the same)

Exodus 30 vs 11-17
Is it really saying that you must pay money to the upkeep of God's temple(I assume nowadays this would be the Church or whatever religious site you may have)? Or He will not protect you?

Numbers 31 vs 1 - 18
This was before the Ten Commandments (I assume, as those are later in the Bible) so I don't know if this counts. But is it telling us that Gos tells Moses to tell the Israelites to attack the Midianites? Further in verse 17-18 'Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him. But all the women children that have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.' I am seeing this as a sanction to kill everyone and keep the young girls for yourselves (perhaps simply to lead them to God and accept them as Israelites, but why only young virgin girls? I suspect an entirely...different purpose)

Deuteronomy 25 vs 17-19
Really a command from God through Moses (who only earlier in Deuteronomy 5 tells us not to commit murder) to kill all the Ameleakites in revenge for attacking Israelites escaping from Egypt?

1 Samuel 15 vs 1-9
This one tells us specifically that God says, in verse 3,
'Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep...etc'
I can't see any other way of reading this except that God, who only earlier tells us not to commit murder, is also telling us now to murder every single one of the people of Amalek. Further when Saul doesn't kill everyone of them God makes it clear that Saul should no longer be King.

Throughout the old testament there is a continual stream of such sentiment, this changes drastically with Jesus and most of Christianity is based on the teaching of Jesus rather than God the father in the Old Testament (and I can agree to most of those sentiments and the ideals Christianity strives for, even if it fails along the way).

Are the teaching in the Old Testament less important? How should these stories be taken? At face value they seem almost the exact opposite of what Jesus preaches (I think the furthest he goes is to upset the money lenders)

 

[dws391]

Not much time but will try to answer your questions:

Exodus is talking of atonement. The people gave as payment for their life, sort of like animal sacrifices were blood atonements (payments) to cover the sins of the people. The money collected was used for the upkeep of the temple. Jesus took care of atonements, his sacrafice was sufficient to pay for all sins of all men for all time. Do we have to tithe? No I don't think it is a have to but we should want to.

1 Samuel dealing with th Amalekites. Yes God said kill all of them. I view this in this manner, God who is the creator has the soverign right to do with his creation as he chooses. If he decides it is to die then he has that right as God. As for the people carrying out the act, I suppose my response is that they were carrying out the instruction of God. Soldiers today kill and I don't see that as murder when they are doing their duty.

 

[Confess]

OK. The first one basically is talking about the laws that God put down for the people to keep the church afloat financially. Everything in those days were laws which must be kept.

The rest that talk about killing the pagans were done because God was witnessing his power and might to all the pagans in the land so that they would fear and acknowledge the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob as the One True God. He killed off every pagan in the path of Israel, even the children and many times even the cattle so that there would be NO memory of the false worshippers and their false gods.

 

[Adstar]

Earlier today i heard some people at my school discussing (I say discussing...) religion and, being in the UK, it primarily centered on Christianity.

Now I myself don't believe in there being a 'God' or some kind of external force involved, but I also admit that 'Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence' so there is certainly a possibility. I do see there being advantages to people and society of the moral code and general beliefs of religions, being a UK resident primarily Christianity.

Anyway the Christians involved struggled to meet the arguments of the others with what I would call decent answers. But that's not the point of this post. Those arguing against Christianity quoted from the 'Good News Bible' a number of verses

I don't have that bible to hand but I do have another (with different translations but the idea is the same)

Exodus 30 vs 11-17
Is it really saying that you must pay money to the upkeep of God's temple(I assume nowadays this would be the Church or whatever religious site you may have)? Or He will not protect you?

This was for the upkeep of the temple. The temple no longer exists for The act of Jesus in dieing for all men made the temple obsolete. The temples main reason for being was to provide a place for atoning sacrifice to be carried out. Jesus was the final atoning sacrifice.

Now Christians can use any place as a gathering place. Even an internet forum and we should give what we can to support whatever needs arise within the body of the believers. But this is not a Law to give money to a Church but it can end up that we give to a church to support the body of believers.

Numbers 31 vs 1 - 18
This was before the Ten Commandments (I assume, as those are later in the Bible) so I don't know if this counts. But is it telling us that Gos tells Moses to tell the Israelites to attack the Midianites? Further in verse 17-18 'Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him. But all the women children that have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.' I am seeing this as a sanction to kill everyone and keep the young girls for yourselves (perhaps simply to lead them to God and accept them as Israelites, but why only young virgin girls? I suspect an entirely...different purpose)

I have seen this suspicion in many who have questioned why they kept the girls alive. But i believe they where used as servants.

Deuteronomy 25 vs 17-19
Really a command from God through Moses (who only earlier in Deuteronomy 5 tells us not to commit murder) to kill all the Ameleakites in revenge for attacking Israelites escaping from Egypt?

The Law is you shall not commit murder. There is a difference between murder and executions. Both entail killing, one is illegal killing and the other is legal killing. God being the ultimate judge in this case authorised the execution of the Ameleakites. So therefore the jews where not murdering the Amelekites they where carrying out a death sentence order given to them by God.

1 Samuel 15 vs 1-9
This one tells us specifically that God says, in verse 3,
'Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep...etc'
I can't see any other way of reading this except that God, who only earlier tells us not to commit murder, is also telling us now to murder every single one of the people of Amalek. Further when Saul doesn't kill everyone of them God makes it clear that Saul should no longer be King.

Yes Saul disobeyed the Order from God. The same would happen to a prision official who refused to carry out the orders of judge.

Throughout the old testament there is a continual stream of such sentiment, this changes drastically with Jesus and most of Christianity is based on the teaching of Jesus rather than God the father in the Old Testament (and I can agree to most of those sentiments and the ideals Christianity strives for, even if it fails along the way).

Sin and evil are still punishable by death. What has changed is that God does not order us to carry out the death sentence anymore. He himself will carry out the death sentence in eternity. We are no longer His executioners but His ambassadors of mercy proclaiming forgiveness of sins for those who rely upon the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah Jesus.

Are the teaching in the Old Testament less important? How should these stories be taken? At face value they seem almost the exact opposite of what Jesus preaches (I think the furthest he goes is to upset the money lenders)

The price of sin is death. That is the message of the OT and the NT. Jesus did not teach the opposite of the OT at all He only directed us to no longer carry out the punishments but to transfer all punishments to God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Zeena]

Are the teaching in the Old Testament less important?

No for we learn more of who Jesus in through the eyes of the Holy Spirit when we so take up His Word

How should these stories be taken?

As shadows of the reality found in Christ.

At face value they seem almost the exact opposite of what Jesus preaches (I think the furthest he goes is to upset the money lenders)

Jesus came in the body prepared for Him by God as a Lamb without blemish..

To offer Himself once for all the sin of human beings.

He is risen from the dead, and is Glorified with the Glory He had with God before the world began.

He shall come again in Power as Judge to Judge the world.

2 Thessalonians 1
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[BigNorsk]

Well, I don't know everything, but I think I can explain a bit.

Your reduction of Christianity to a moral Code misses something that is very important, we call it the good news or the Gospel. You find that people can learn and understand a lot about the law from general revelation, that is through God's creation. So you see all kinds of religions that manage to come up with a pretty good imitation of the moral laws. What they never come up with is the Gospel.

Now that's important because Law can point out that we are sinners and it condemns us, but it can never save us. The world is full of people trying to do enough or be good enough to be saved, that does not work.

Only the Gospel saves, we are not saved because we are good enough or do enough, we are saved because Jesus is good enough and has done enough, and we receive his saving grace through faith. We are united with him and his works and his goodness saves us.

That's a really important thing, something that a lot of people calling themselves Christians even miss.

The temple. It was a model of heaven and it was where man met with God. That has ended, God does not live in a building anymore. The veil was rent went Jesus paid for our sins, so we no longer must go through priests to God. People still get that confused a lot, they think God is in a church building and it's where you go to meet God. But we now live in a new age until such a time as we can enter the real temple in heaven.

The Midianites had tried to curse Israel and had been the source of leading people to worship false Gods. They were destroyed as all people who fight against God will ultimately be destroyed, they serve as a reminder. I am not absolutely sure about the young women, but I believe it has to do with how households were set up. If you left either a man, or his son, or his wife, then his house continued, and so to leave them would have brought the Midianite nation into the nation of Israel. But the young women who had never been joined to a man did not represent a household, they would become part of the house of whomever they were joined. That's a basic guess, God doesn't explain it so it shouldn't be taken as absolute certainty.

In several of the questions you do not understand that war to protect the people of God is not murder.

If you want to take the overview of the Old Testament for a moment I think I can give you a general insight. It is basically the story of God's chosen people, the nation of Israel and it shows God's power, that the most powerful nations could not stand against the weakest with God on their side. And the promised land was given to God's people and not those who rejected him. All their strenght and riches and whatever brought them nothing but death.

That all prefigures heaven. Heaven is the land promised to those who put their faith in God. And God is so powerful that what he promises will indeed come to pass. Often Christians seem the most foolish people in the whole world and they are laughed at by the rich and the powerful. But those riches and power are nothing really, and those who rely on them will not receive the promised land.

God and Israel didn't really kill anyone, they were already dead. And salvation was really open even to them. Take Rahab in Jericho, though she lived in the town that as the first fruit of the conquest of the promised land belonged to God alone and everyone and everything in it was to be totally destroyed. Yet Rahab and her family were saved by faith.

So it is today that a very few come out of the rich and powerful and put their faith in God and are saved.

Now one more thing. Let's look for a moment not at the details of the arguement you heard, let's focus on the real arguement.

The basic arguement, is that one cannot or should not believe in God until and unless he understands every detail in the Bible and reconciles it with how he thinks God should be.

That's all flipped upside down. If God isn't God unless you understand everything about him then that makes you god. It's the difference between God on the mountain with Moses, and the golden calf. The people you heard arguing are saying they would believe in the golden calf because they can understand everything it can do, but they won't believe in God, because they don't, really can't understand everything.

The other thing is such arguements really put the cart before the horse. The focus of the whole Bible is Jesus. Here's the questions that you need to know the answers. Did Jesus exist? Did He claim to be God? Did he show he is God? The evidence is that the answer to all those is yes.

Now if Jesus is God, then by what right do people withold themselves because they don't understand some obscure passages in the Old Testament? If Jesus is not God, then it is all moot, simply a bunch of fables which one can ignore. But if Jesus is God, when you look at how he treated the scriptures then you see that they are very valuable, for God used them as absolute proof of the truth.

A lot of people love to show how smart they are by arguing for arguement's sake. Learn to look past the misdirections to the real important questions and answers.

Marv

 

[PhilosopherD]

There is only a problem with those verses if

A) God is under some standard, which He is not.

B) We equate Capital Punishment with murder (which I don't). Sometimes, people DO deserve what they get. The problems come when people try to put themselves into the place of God's authority, such as Hitler, and dole out 'punishment' in a similar fashion. They are murderers in such a case.

 

[Merlin]

Are the teaching in the Old Testament less important? How should these stories be taken? At face value they seem almost the exact opposite of what Jesus preaches (I think the furthest he goes is to upset the money lenders)

The old tesament was given to the children of Israel.
It was to and for them.
Specific people, specific time.

 

[BigNorsk]

That's a frightening argument. it's the same used by the Jihadists and by the nazis. -God is on our side, therefore our actions are justified.

The danger of the argument is that the opinions and instructions of the putative god are inevitably channeled to the masses via one or two individual humans. These may be in direct communication with the divine, or they may be psycopathic nutjobs. It can be hard to tell the difference.

What had the Amalekites done to deserve the attention of the creator of all things? Do we know? Or do we just take Samuel's word for it that they were baddies? Could their position in territory the Israelites wanted have anything to do with it?

It's a bit different. Because it is not God is on our side, let's go kill everyone. What you are talking about is a specific command from God. At this time, we do not receive such commands. We have scripture to guide us. Scripture tells us to love our enemies and not to murder.

Now there are people who claim to be prophets and to speak for God and you are right. They are dangerous people, false prophets, just as the prophets in those other religions are false prophets.

False prophets and people being mislead by them is a reoccuring theme in Christianity to our shame. And there is a real flurry of such today. All you have to do is turn on the tv to see such false prophets.

It seems that all religions spawn such people. Really it gets down to personal greed and power more than religion.

I can't imagine why people continue to listen to such trash, but they do.

Marv