Healthy Balance

[Lisa0315]

It has been said that there are two lines of thought here: Theology and Grace.

On one hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is to defend orthodox beliefs and to insure the integrity of the gospel.

On the other hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is outreach to non-believers and uplifting of brothers and sisters.

We seem to have been arguing for some time that one or the other is the ONLY way. Whereas, it may just be possible that both are correct.

There needs to be a healthy balance between the two. God has called us to defend the gospel and to also love our neighbor.

None of us are exactly the same and we should not be attempting to force our own philosophy on the other.

I am a huge believer in the Love Command. That drives my theology. All other commands derive from that. That is what "I" believe.

Even if others do not agree, what part of that makes me less Conservative than another?

Are we not all parts of the body? In my saner moments, I explored the idea that those with more of a defend the gospel temperment, were perhaps the fighting arm of the body. Perhaps, I am more of the shoulder in which I invite people to share their burdens with me.

I suppose the thing that has been most frustrating with me is the sense that the shoulder is not as valid as the fist. Do you understand what I am saying?

Can we all acknowledge that we have all been given different gifts and are to use those gifts according to what we have been called to do?

Just like in a business, you have an HR department, and Accounting department, a Marketing Department, and a Legal Department. A hundred different analogies could be made from that.

I am just trying to get people to see how we can all be completely different and yet still be serving God.

Lisa (Recently Signed Back in Member who is not ready to give up on this place)

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Lisa, if this thread kicks off, I want your permission to close it, please.

 

[Lisa0315]

Lisa, if this thread kicks off, I want your permission to close it, please.

Sure, Greenie. Maybe it won't.

Lisa

 

[drstevej]

Hi GM and Lisa.

I do think both theology and love are vital and non-conflicting. We are to speak truth in love.

I am concerned about threads getting overheated and personal. Sometimes some think time is needed.

I think there also is a conflict over the purpose of this specific forum and maybe creating a Outreach Subforum is helpful.

I do think if this thread gets heated it might be good to pause it. Many folks are still raw from yesterday and prior days.

Appreciate you both.

Steve

 

[Lisa0315]

Hi GM and Lisa.

I do think both theology and love are vital and non-conflicting. We are to speak truth in love.

I am concerned about threads getting overheated and personal. Sometimes some think time is needed.

I think there also is a conflict over the purpose of this specific forum and maybe creating a Outreach Subforum is helpful.

I do think if this thread gets heated it might be good to pause it. Many folks are still raw from yesterday and prior days.

Appreciate you both.

Steve

Yes, this may be a bit premature. We will see how it goes.

Lisa

 

[drstevej]

You're awesome, Lisa.

 

[Lisa0315]

You're awesome, Lisa.

You are too, darlin'

Lisa

 

[synger]

From what I've seen, it's not the balance so much as how people communicate that encourages or fans flames. Time and time again I see people who seem to feel angry when someone disagrees with them doctrinally. It's not just that they disagree.. it's that the person takes it as a personal attack. Or worse, an attack on God.

From looking at history and theology, one thing has stuck in my mind. There are no new heresies, and very few new ideas. (In fact, the new ideas tend to come because of advancements in science and political theory, that cause wide-spread changes in societies, that then require re-thinking of doctrines to see how they fit with the new changes. Like the advent of motorized transportation, and the availability of birth control, and the rise of socialism.)

The Church has survived for centuries, and will continue to do so, even as people argue and dissect, and yes, attack. I am called to share my beliefs, and to work to serve God and man... but I am not called to "convince" anyone of anything. THat's God's job, and He does it far better than I ever could. So long as I remember that, and leave the convincing in His hands, I can focus on sharing the living gospel, and the doctrines of hope that spring from it.

 

[drstevej]

As a pastor I also have a concern when I see someone leading others astray.

 

[desmalia]

Hi Lisa,
I'm not sure that these two classifications really define the "sides" (since in fact they're not opposites, and Christians value both very much), but we can try to work through this together if you like.

It has been said that there are two lines of thought here: Theology and Grace.

I agree, it has been said. I would like to point out that although it has been said often and forcefully at times, it's been said by very few individuals. The vast majority here recognize both as important. I would offer that there are differing degrees of focus on each issue, but that neither so-called side dismisses one or the other at all.

On one hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is to defend orthodox beliefs and to insure the integrity of the gospel.

I would like try to clarify this label since I fall under it. I believe that because this is an online forum, made up of text, sharing the Gospel message should be the main focus. That is not at the expense of respect, kindness, or composure, as you well know and that is because we are never effective ministers to God's truth if we are trying to promote it for the wrong reasons or motives. The Gospel it is not to be watered down either because then it is no longer the Gospel, but man-made ideology. Real life of course is not the same limited, shallow playing field. There we have personal interaction, and the opportunity to be true servants of one another. Online, those options are limited. So we have to assess what is possible and do our best with that.

Let me try to say this as clearly as I possibly can. Doctrine is vitally important, and by that I mean knowing and living it. Sharing the Gospel is not dry preaching and finger pointing. It is sharing the truth out of love for the souls it may reach. God's first command is to love Him, and His second is to love His children. Without the first, the second means nothing. Under that definition, I hope you can agree this is not a bad position to take.

Honestly I've yet to see any here who want to promote the Gospel for any purpose other than a love for God's truth and for His people. Maybe I don't always say things in the most effective way, but that is because I am human, and imperfect, and yes, sinful. I try, but sometimes I fail. I will continue to try though, and I hope that we can extend each other that grace I keep hearing about when we do mess it up at times.

On the other hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is outreach to non-believers and uplifting of brothers and sisters.

Now this part I can agree on a little more. There are some who focus mainly on that. Completely on that alone? I hope not, but mainly, yes, that seems fairly accurate. We may place different levels of importance on it, but I do think we can all agree that it is still "high up on the list" to share our Lord with the lost. (And I think we must keep in mind that how we share with the lost will depend on our gifts and personalities to a degree. Some will share the Gospel directly, and some will be more of a listening ear. Both are valid.)

I believe we must also remember to be ministers to one another. If we ever try to reach out to an unbeliever at the expense of another believer we completely belittle and even destroy the ministry we're attempting. Why should the unbeliever take us seriously when we offer them a kind hand, but stab our own brother or sister in the back? We must care for one another in the Body, and at times that even has to be a focus above direct outreach to the lost. Consider that when we do care for one another in the Body, that in itself is also outreach to the lost too because they see how we care for each other, and come to desire the same intimacy that we know in Christ.

So my point being that ministry is not only to the lost. It is to each other too. Some may be called to focus more on one than the other at times, and I see no reason why there has to be division over that in any way. If we're supporting each other in these ministries, we can build one another up and have strength in true unity.

We seem to have been arguing for some time that one or the other is the ONLY way. Whereas, it may just be possible that both are correct.

I will have to disagree with you here. I don't think anyone has ever said it has to be ONLY one or the other. Not once. That would actually be a contradiction of Scripture!

There needs to be a healthy balance between the two. God has called us to defend the gospel and to also love our neighbor.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find a single Christian who disagrees with this or who doesn't understand it. It's just that everyone is trying so hard to be heard. Like a lot of people screaming over top of each other. That's where these misconceptions often come from.

None of us are exactly the same and we should not be attempting to force our own philosophy on the other.

Agreed. I hope you can agree too that people should not be muzzled from sharing their beliefs either and discussing them honestly. If it can't be done in a respectful manner, that is a whole other issue. I just don't want to see this become a "walk on eggshells" so we can keep the peace kind of scenario, and I think most here would agree with me on that.

I am a huge believer in the Love Command. That drives my theology. All other commands derive from that. That is what "I" believe.

Thank you for sharing. I look forward to seeing this belief in practice, sister.

Even if others do not agree, what part of that makes me less Conservative than another?

Frankly I've totally given up any concern as to whether someone considers me conservative or not. Some consider that since I am a fundmantalist I fall in a category (to the right?) outside of what encompases "conservative". So be it. It's not like they're saying I'm not a Christian (which is a term I hold far more dearly!). Anyway, I think it would be helpful if we let go of this label because it really doesn't mean so much in the grand scheme of things.

Are we not all parts of the body? In my saner moments, I explored the idea that those with more of a defend the gospel temperment, were perhaps the fighting arm of the body. Perhaps, I am more of the shoulder in which I invite people to share their burdens with me.

I suppose the thing that has been most frustrating with me is the sense that the shoulder is not as valid as the fist. Do you understand what I am saying?

I can understand what you're saying. But I think we need to be careful here because the "strong arm" members as you call them, have also seen your "cold shoulder", not the loving, welcoming one (and have been treated as though they are not valid as well). These are both important things that need to be sorted out. I think we can ALL agree that feelings have been hurt. Each Christian involved in this will need to take the responsibility to forgive those that have hurt him or her (even if no forgiveness is asked for) if we're going to move past this. That doesn't mean everything is "lovey-dovey" There are times when we forgive, but we still proceed with caution. That is wise. But we know the forgiveness of our Lord for the horrid things we've done against Him. Whatever we have to forgive one another is nothing compared to that.

Can we all acknowledge that we have all been given different gifts and are to use those gifts according to what we have been called to do?

One would hope so. I'm going to get really personal here and give a specific example of a gift that should be encouraged. Nadiine (sorry to pick on you, sister!) very clearly has the gift of prophesy (sharing the Gospel). It is an honor for me to support her in this. I admire how she has grown in this gift to the Glory of our Lord. That's just one example of course. Each of us have different gifts.

Just like in a business, you have an HR department, and Accounting department, a Marketing Department, and a Legal Department. A hundred different analogies could be made from that.

I am just trying to get people to see how we can all be completely different and yet still be serving God.

Lisa (Recently Signed Back in Member who is not ready to give up on this place)

I appreciate that, and I agree with it. I do also believe that most people here are already quite aware of it.

 

[Lisa0315]

Hi Lisa,
I'm not sure that these two classifications really define the "sides" (since in fact they're not opposites, and Christians value both very much), but we can try to work through this together if you like.

I agree, it has been said. I would like to point out that although it has been said often and forcefully at times, it's been said by very few individuals. The vast majority here recognize both as important. I would offer that there are differing degrees of focus on each issue, but that neither so-called side dismisses one or the other at all.

I would like try to clarify this label since I fall under it. I believe that because this is an online forum, made up of text, sharing the Gospel message should be the main focus. That is not at the expense of respect, kindness, or composure, as you well know and that is because we are never effective ministers to God's truth if we are trying to promote it for the wrong reasons or motives. The Gospel it is not to be watered down either because then it is no longer the Gospel, but man-made ideology. Real life of course is not the same limited, shallow playing field. There we have personal interaction, and the opportunity to be true servants of one another. Online, those options are limited. So we have to assess what is possible and do our best with that.

Let me try to say this as clearly as I possibly can. Doctrine is vitally important, and by that I mean knowing and living it. Sharing the Gospel is not dry preaching and finger pointing. It is sharing the truth out of love for the souls it may reach. God's first command is to love Him, and His second is to love His children. Without the first, the second means nothing. Under that definition, I hope you can agree this is not a bad position to take.

Honestly I've yet to see any here who want to promote the Gospel for any purpose other than a love for God's truth and for His people. Maybe I don't always say things in the most effective way, but that is because I am human, and imperfect, and yes, sinful. I try, but sometimes I fail. I will continue to try though, and I hope that we can extend each other that grace I keep hearing about when we do mess it up at times.


Now this part I can agree on a little more. There are some who focus mainly on that. Completely on that alone? I hope not, but mainly, yes, that seems fairly accurate. We may place different levels of importance on it, but I do think we can all agree that it is still "high up on the list" to share our Lord with the lost. (And I think we must keep in mind that how we share with the lost will depend on our gifts and personalities to a degree. Some will share the Gospel directly, and some will be more of a listening ear. Both are valid.)

I believe we must also remember to be ministers to one another. If we ever try to reach out to an unbeliever at the expense of another believer we completely belittle and even destroy the ministry we're attempting. Why should the unbeliever take us seriously when we offer them a kind hand, but stab our own brother or sister in the back? We must care for one another in the Body, and at times that even has to be a focus above direct outreach to the lost. Consider that when we do care for one another in the Body, that in itself is also outreach to the lost too because they see how we care for each other, and come to desire the same intimacy that we know in Christ.

So my point being that ministry is not only to the lost. It is to each other too. Some may be called to focus more on one than the other at times, and I see no reason why there has to be division over that in any way. If we're supporting each other in these ministries, we can build one another up and have strength in true unity.


I will have to disagree with you here. I don't think anyone has ever said it has to be ONLY one or the other. Not once. That would actually be a contradiction of Scripture!


I think you'll be hard pressed to find a single Christian who disagrees with this or who doesn't understand it. It's just that everyone is trying so hard to be heard. Like a lot of people screaming over top of each other. That's where these misconceptions often come from.

Agreed. I hope you can agree too that people should not be muzzled from sharing their beliefs either and discussing them honestly. If it can't be done in a respectful manner, that is a whole other issue. I just don't want to see this become a "walk on eggshells" so we can keep the peace kind of scenario, and I think most here would agree with me on that.

Thank you for sharing. I look forward to seeing this belief in practice, sister.

Frankly I've totally given up any concern as to whether someone considers me conservative or not. Some consider that since I am a fundmantalist I fall in a category (to the right?) outside of what encompases "conservative". So be it. It's not like they're saying I'm not a Christian (which is a term I hold far more dearly!). Anyway, I think it would be helpful if we let go of this label because it really doesn't mean so much in the grand scheme of things.

I can understand what you're saying. But I think we need to be careful here because the "strong arm" members as you call them, have also seen your "cold shoulder", not the loving, welcoming one (and have been treated as though they are not valid as well). These are both important things that need to be sorted out. I think we can ALL agree that feelings have been hurt. Each Christian involved in this will need to take the responsibility to forgive those that have hurt him or her (even if no forgiveness is asked for) if we're going to move past this. That doesn't mean everything is "lovey-dovey" There are times when we forgive, but we still proceed with caution. That is wise. But we know the forgiveness of our Lord for the horrid things we've done against Him. Whatever we have to forgive one another is nothing compared to that.

One would hope so. I'm going to get really personal here and give a specific example of a gift that should be encouraged. Nadiine (sorry to pick on you, sister!) very clearly has the gift of prophesy (sharing the Gospel). It is an honor for me to support her in this. I admire how she has grown in this gift to the Glory of our Lord. That's just one example of course. Each of us have different gifts.

I appreciate that, and I agree with it. I do also believe that most people here are already quite aware of it.

Oh, I am going to remember that. I have had a cold shoulder lately. I think we have all been in the wrong.

I cannot change other people, but I can change my own behavior. When I decided to come back, I purposed in my heart that I would not get into fights anymore. First, they are conter-productive. Second, they affect me and my walk greatly. Last, who KNOWS who else it may be affecting.

I think that is my chief concern right there. Again, not talking right or wrong, but just where my own perception is coming from. When I see angry brothers and sisters fighting with each other, even if one side is completely in the right from a doctrine point of view, I wonder how a seeker may view us. I worry about that alot.

Lisa

 

[desmalia]

Oh, I am going to remember that. I have had a cold shoulder lately. I think we have all been in the wrong.

I cannot change other people, but I can change my own behavior. When I decided to come back, I purposed in my heart that I would not get into fights anymore. First, they are conter-productive. Second, they affect me and my walk greatly. Last, who KNOWS who else it may be affecting.

I think that is my chief concern right there. Again, not talking right or wrong, but just where my own perception is coming from. When I see angry brothers and sisters fighting with each other, even if one side is completely in the right from a doctrine point of view, I wonder how a seeker may view us. I worry about that alot.

Lisa

It's an ongoing challenge for us to proclaim confidence in God's truth while remaining in personal humility. I understand how you are feeling completely. We need to remain in that humble place every time we post (or speak, or act, or...).

 

[ReformedChapin]

It has been said that there are two lines of thought here: Theology and Grace.

On one hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is to defend orthodox beliefs and to insure the integrity of the gospel.

On the other hand, we have some who believe that the main job of a Christian is outreach to non-believers and uplifting of brothers and sisters.

We seem to have been arguing for some time that one or the other is the ONLY way. Whereas, it may just be possible that both are correct.

There needs to be a healthy balance between the two. God has called us to defend the gospel and to also love our neighbor.

None of us are exactly the same and we should not be attempting to force our own philosophy on the other.

I am a huge believer in the Love Command. That drives my theology. All other commands derive from that. That is what "I" believe.

Even if others do not agree, what part of that makes me less Conservative than another?

Are we not all parts of the body? In my saner moments, I explored the idea that those with more of a defend the gospel temperment, were perhaps the fighting arm of the body. Perhaps, I am more of the shoulder in which I invite people to share their burdens with me.

I suppose the thing that has been most frustrating with me is the sense that the shoulder is not as valid as the fist. Do you understand what I am saying?

Can we all acknowledge that we have all been given different gifts and are to use those gifts according to what we have been called to do?

Just like in a business, you have an HR department, and Accounting department, a Marketing Department, and a Legal Department. A hundred different analogies could be made from that.

I am just trying to get people to see how we can all be completely different and yet still be serving God.

Lisa (Recently Signed Back in Member who is not ready to give up on this place)

Lisa I see that you have decided to apply our conversation to help resolve this thread and I thank you for it. I would like to add that those of us who are for keeping the integarty of the Gospel are STRONG for love. But love doesn't always involve an enphasis on feelings and being emotional. That even if I offend many individuals in this forum is a byproduct of our culture which ISN'T BIBLICAL.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Lisa I see that you have decided to apply our conversation to help resolve this thread and I thank you for it. I would like to add that those of us who are for keeping the integarty of the Gospel are STRONG for love. But love doesn't always involve an enphasis on feelings and being emotional. That even if I offend many individuals in this forum is a byproduct of our culture which ISN'T BIBLICAL.

I've had to hurt peoples feelings because I love them sometimes.

 

[drstevej]

Love is doing that which is in the best interests of the other. A doctor is not unloving when he tells a patient they have cancer. People who love you tell you when your zipper is open.

 

[Lisa0315]

Lisa I see that you have decided to apply our conversation to help resolve this thread and I thank you for it. I would like to add that those of us who are for keeping the integarty of the Gospel are STRONG for love. But love doesn't always involve an enphasis on feelings and being emotional. That even if I offend many individuals in this forum is a byproduct of our culture which ISN'T BIBLICAL.

I am a bit hard headed, but I do know when God speaks through a person. Dude, He was speaking in what you wrote to me!

Anyway, my thing is I understand it is not always about hugs and feelings. Yet, can we at least be KIND? Do you know what I mean?

I guess I would just want to work on my delivery. Like, what if I had said all of this first? It is respectful and it is not accusing of anyone. Wouldn't I have saved alot of harm and not scarred my own soul with being ugly?

So, I am sort of wondering if others would do the same. One of the reasons I was unable to argue effectively was that I recognized the truth in what was being said from a doctrine perspective, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what was bothering me about it. I called it out as "fundamentalism" and I shouldn't have. I was trying to say that there was something wrong with the delivery but in turn my own delivery was horrible.

I think part of it is also my Southern raising in which you are supposed to be polite even if someone is being insulting to you.

I just want there to be a balance between truth and the way it is delivered with love.

Another thing is that on here, people cannot hear tones. So, sometimes things sound alot worse than they are intended.

I don't know. I am just trying to figure things out. I am especially trying to figure out why I was so ineffective and ended up becoming something disgraceful.

Lisa

 

[drstevej]

I am a Southerner by the grace of God, too.

Southern definitions:

Hospitality - the art of making others feel at home, when you wish they were.

Tact - the art of telling some one to go to hades and have them look forward to the trip.

 

[Lisa0315]

Love is doing that which is in the best interests of the other. A doctor is not unloving when he tells a patient they have cancer. People who love you tell you when your zipper is open.

Yes, that is true.

But...You could say, "<snicker> Dude, your zipper is undone" and then go tell everyone in the office. (Unloving) or "<whisper> Dude, your zipper is undone". (Loving)

I understand that telling someone the truth is a loving thing to do, but delivery of that truth is important too.

Steve, let me tell you a story about my brother, a pastor.

When he first began preaching, he acquired this bad habit of shaking his finger at the audience while he was preaching. He was much more effective when he learned to not shake his finger at people. That was probably 20 years ago now, but I will never forget the first time I saw him preach. I was so embarrassed for him and watched people's reactions to it. It was not good.

So, even though, he had this wonderful sermon, and he is a great speaker, and even more, truly called by God, he was ineffective because of a silly delivery problem. Do you see my point?

Lisa

 

[ReformedChapin]

I am a bit hard headed, but I do know when God speaks through a person. Dude, He was speaking in what you wrote to me!

Anyway, my thing is I understand it is not always about hugs and feelings. Yet, can we at least be KIND? Do you know what I mean?

I guess I would just want to work on my delivery. Like, what if I had said all of this first? It is respectful and it is not accusing of anyone. Wouldn't I have saved alot of harm and not scarred my own soul with being ugly?

So, I am sort of wondering if others would do the same. One of the reasons I was unable to argue effectively was that I recognized the truth in what was being said from a doctrine perspective, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what was bothering me about it. I called it out as &quot;fundamentalism&quot; and I shouldn't have. I was trying to say that there was something wrong with the delivery but in turn my own delivery was horrible.

I think part of it is also my Southern raising in which you are supposed to be polite even if someone is being insulting to you.

I just want there to be a balance between truth and the way it is delivered with love.

Another thing is that on here, people cannot hear tones. So, sometimes things sound alot worse than they are intended.

I don't know. I am just trying to figure things out. I am especially trying to figure out why I was so ineffective and ended up becoming something disgraceful.

Lisa

Lisa, no one wants to apply kindness and sweetness to any situation than me. HONESTLY. But as Jesus did, it really depends on the situation. Sometimes you have to throw out the truth to someone and sometimes you have to show the grace. It's really hard to tell when to apply each but it really depends on the situation.

 

[drstevej]

Of course I see the point and I hope you were the one who told him. I had to tell a close friend who was a retreat speaker that he used the word "prolific" so many times that the audience was counting them. Not easy.

Now people respond to different styles of confrontation. I was reminded of this verse:

1Thes 5:14
We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

I think that merits my reflection.