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I agree our job is to love them and tell them about Jesus and what he did. Not throwing stones because we carry a multitude of sins ourselves. Isn't arguing a sin and if so what makes it any less than someone's sexual preference? Not that I condone it but let the Holy Spirit work.I totally get that, but what about keeping the Sabbath Holy or Thou Shalt not Covet which are actually listed in the 10 Commandments?
Why is homosexuality such a glaring sin that people seem to need to correct? Do you think Christians reject people who covet have big houses and nice cars as much as they would a homosexual? It seems to me to be quite the opposite; They seem to rather want to be accepted by theses people rather than reject them.
Christians like to point this out because it's an easy sin for them not to commit if they weren't born or made that way. Wouldn't you agree? But they won't spend much time pointing out the ones that aren't so easy.
What I see them preaching and doing is making sure people in the congregations are taken care of. That's got multiple witnesses.
You're stonewalling. And frankly, of all people, I'm quite surprised to you see you stoop to such a measure. I don't see your rhetoric, as short as it is in your post above, as an actual application of the high level of God-given intelligence I know you have. You can do better. It's also not, from my view of the Christian faith, coming as an expression of your faith either. No, it's coming from being locked into a certain evangelical hermeneutic.What I do not see them preaching or doing is social justice over the rest of the world. I won't entertain speculation without some evidence...and there is none at all.
OK, fair enough. I bring up those topics simply to point out that the issue isn't about washing people feet. It isn't about doing something nice to someone because we THINK we are doing something that God would be pleased with. It isn't for believers doing nice things to other believers because we think we're doing God a favor.
Washing unbelievers' feet, let alone believers' feet, means nothing. Why do it? We are never going to get unbelievers to like us. Those who desire to live godly lives will face persecution. If we're not facing persecution, then perhaps we really are not living godly lives.
Rather....We should love God with all our hearts. If our hearts are full of love of God, then out of it will flow good works from God-but we don't measure those works (e.g. I washed 10 people's feet this week). We should live our lives in obedience to God's commands because we desire to bring glory to God's name. God commands us to pray for one another so we do so because it brings glory to God. God wants us to have fellowship with one another because corporate worship brings glory to God. If God tells us we are to go and tell the world to repent and turn to Him for healing then, yes, we do that as well. Witnessing has to be the greatest illustration of showing love to God, for it truly shows our love to others. It is also the most difficult. It is far easier to wash a person's feet than to gently explain to them that they're a sinner in need for Christ to enter their heart.
BTW-To me, proper witnessing is also the most difficult but it is also the most direct command we are given. I'm not very good at it. Being obedient to God is a very daunting task that shows me how far I fall short and in need for constant repentence.
That seems to be a different type of acceptance. We can't pretend that it's normal so I see your point. Levitical priests of ancient Israel had to be physically without defect and ritually pure before performing their duties so I don't believe they should go as far as being appointed to leadership positions and pastor status."Why is homosexuality such a glaring sin that people seem to need to correct?"
I think this is the crux of the matter. Homosexuality is not only a lifestyle, it is an ideology.
Now this doesn't mean that every gay or lesbian is a raging leftist who wants to subvert cultural and gender norms (Dave Rubin is conservative--as one example), but the vast majority of them are. That brings them into conflict with the Church
homosexuality in itself, isn't much different from any other sin, and should be considered as such by Christians. We should not say "a homosexual is worse than a thief".
The other problem, as I stated above, is entryism --as Christians, we need to be careful not to "let people in" who are bad actors, and seek to undermine the faith and the structure of the church. We can see what happened to mainline protestant denominations who began to cater to homosexuals, then began making excuses for the behavior, and then finally "affirmed" homosexuality, and even started appointing actively homosexual people to leadership positions and pastor status. Those churches lost members, split, or even failed.
So I say proceed cautiously. We should NOT "shut the doors" to anyone seeking Christ, and who honestly wants to turn his or her life around. But we need to be vigilant about our theology, our practices, and the Gospel.
Sorry, I'm just now going through everything and trying to navigate the complexities and multifaceted history and politics that people are presenting. Very interesting but resembles the same ole arguments that I hear at work all the time.
Anyway, wouldn't you say that judging or condemning homosexuals and causing them to either commit suicide or turn away from the Church would also be doing the people a disservice?
Jesus didn't come to condemn so if we were to be like Jesus, shouldn't we also not condemn?
I wouldn't say that people are explaining away homosexuality as much as trying to make sense of it. If you were born a homosexual wouldn't you try to make sense of it? I think these people just want to be accepted which I think is the whole point. I don't feel that people would push for acceptance if it wasn't condemned in the first place. Do you feel differently?
I get what you're saying here but the transformation should come from either Jesus or God right? and not from fellow Christians?
Now, two observations about this phrase “go on sinning deliberately” are really important.
Where is this a direct command? Are you referring to the "Great Commission"?proper witnessing is also the most difficult but it is also the most direct command we are given.
Whether or not social inequality seems to be the "natural order of things," as in issue in and of itself, has little to do with whether or not we should simply accept the entropy and economic disparity that contributes to that "seeming" default. I don't really see Jesus defining that default as simply a part of life that one can ignore. No, I think Jesus sees its presence in the sense of it being an ongoing opportunity for Christians to do "good works" that they have been prepared in advance by God to do.I was jokingly alluding to the "use your PhD". Even though I do prefer more of a direct and literal approach I'm sure someone like Merrill would probably appreciate it.
Anyhow, you don't think social inequality just seems to be the natural order of things? Even in Heaven, doesn't it seem to resemble some sort of social status? Especially when you hear things like "Kingdom of Heaven", "Some who are first will be last and some who are last will be first", "...theirs are the Kingdom of Heaven", "...they will inherit the earth", etc. Even animals seem to naturally have pecking order.
Nah. I don't think you're in left field. You're just seeing as you do at the present moment. That's honest.We all probably have different visions of social inequality so I could be in left field a little.
... if we look at the overall landscape of meaning regarding various laws in the Old Testament, even there we'll see that concern not only for one's fellow citizen was expected by God, but also concern for the Stranger (i.e. well-intended immigrant).If social inequality was so important, why not start at the beginning? Abraham and Sarah had servants. Jacob was set to gain more than Esau. Joseph had dreams of his elevation of status, etc.
Yes, I think you're right. Governments vary rarely have the power or the means to affect an overall economy or political milieu that is fully just and equal to all citizens. So, it's really, at base, up to the daily efforts and intentions of all everyday citizens to make that milieu a more viable possibility. Of course, human selfishness (and/or sin) often simply gets in the way of that conglomerate social effort. I'm sure that even in someplace, today, like Denmark, things are not perfect, even if they are a bit better in some social respects regarding food, clothing, sense of well-being-------------reasons why not to commit suicide----------------------than elsewhere, statistically.I don't see anything wrong with this method; it seems like it's the other methods like from a political standpoint that people may seem to have a problem with.
No, I'm not advocationg for a more moderate approach to Liberation Theology. What I'm attempting to get at isn't 'about' incorporating or amalgamating some aspects of Liberation Theology into one's one present Christian Theology. No, it's about being able to fully and compassionately recognize the value of other human beings (since they're made in God's Image, afterall, even if that image is marred by our respective choices) and to be able to listen to them, in their struggles, and in their pain. Sometimes, too, they'll also have a pertinent aspect within their point of view we can learn from, one that might help all of us to be a little bit more authentically Christian.For example, someone mentioned the dangers in "Liberation Theology". Then I think you mentioned a more moderate approach to "Liberation Theology" which to me seems fair. I'm working off memory so I apologize if I'm getting things mixed up.
Of course. And I don't think any Far-Left (or Far-Right) position is tenable or liveable. As for "Romans," they will do what what they do, regardless of how well we think we'll blockade the Gates.However, if you take it to the extreme like in the Far-left sense, wouldn't that stifle creativity and innovation? And if that happened businesses would stop growing and making money ultimately resulting in the collapse of our economy. Then if our economy collapsed, wouldn't that open doors for the Romans (Oppressors) to come in? That's where the dangers seem to lie. I'm being rhetorical here because it's hard to encapsulate the exact ideology.
I'm not advocating for a "socialist" answer. I'm advocating for a grass-roots awakening to the fact that people have to care about each other as Christ would have us care (love, really, is the word He uses) for each other. I'm not referring to a governmental answer. From all I've studied, and as I've already said, governments have little finalizing power in creating permanent, lasting order for prosperity. No, it's up to the people to make the "Good Society" a reality and to maintain that as a reality on a day-by-day basis. Somehow, a number of right-leaning (and sometimes left-leaning) Christians today in the U.S. don't seem to be able to fathom that truth as well as they should.I don't think anyone would deny that the poor should have certain basic rights; I think there's just a point you cross where it just seems more detrimental overall. If it did result in a weakened economy don't you feel like it would open doors for the Oppressors? We can rely on faith that it would never happen but it's easier said than done.
No. I wouldn't say that back in the OT days, the faith of the Israelites would blow ours away, especially not by today's standards, and not even by the standards of the OT. .... that's why we read what we read in books like Judges, as well as in the overall narrative that led to the historical Exile to Babylon. It's also why we see all that was written and said by the OT Prophets, many who were ignored and/or killed.................by their fellow Israelites.For example, back in the OT days, wouldn't you say that the faith of the Israelites would blow ours away by today's standards?
Why did they feel like they still needed to elect a King? Wasn't it because they felt they still needed some kind of protection? Wouldn't you say that this would (out of necessity) give rise to social inequality? Doesn't it just seem to be a necessity even way back then?
"Why is homosexuality such a glaring sin that people seem to need to correct?"
I think this is the crux of the matter. Homosexuality is not only a lifestyle, it is an ideology.
Now this doesn't mean that every gay or lesbian is a raging leftist who wants to subvert cultural and gender norms (Dave Rubin is conservative--as one example), but the vast majority of them are. That brings them into conflict with the Church
homosexuality in itself, isn't much different from any other sin, and should be considered as such by Christians. We should not say "a homosexual is worse than a thief".
The other problem, as I stated above, is entryism --as Christians, we need to be careful not to "let people in" who are bad actors, and seek to undermine the faith and the structure of the church. We can see what happened to mainline protestant denominations who began to cater to homosexuals, then began making excuses for the behavior, and then finally "affirmed" homosexuality, and even started appointing actively homosexual people to leadership positions and pastor status. Those churches lost members, split, or even failed.
So I say proceed cautiously. We should NOT "shut the doors" to anyone seeking Christ, and who honestly wants to turn his or her life around. But we need to be vigilant about our theology, our practices, and the Gospel.
Again. . .it's not about homosexuality being greater or a "glaring sin" that puts it in the spotlight, it is about attempting to normalize the sin that puts it there.Exactly. If this was all by itself, I would have given it a like
Which direction do you mean? To change their nature of being a homosexual or to seek the grace and forgiveness of Jesus Christ?
Do you believe that latter is the direction that most Christians are steering? Let's be honest here.
I totally get that, but what about keeping the Sabbath Holy or Thou Shalt not Covet which are actually listed in the 10 Commandments?
Why is homosexuality such a glaring sin that people seem to need to correct? Do you think Christians reject people who covet have big houses and nice cars as much as they would a homosexual?
Again. . .it's not about homosexuality being greater or a "glaring sin" that puts it in the spotlight, it is about attempting to normalize the sin that does so
When theft is attempted to be normalized, it will likewise be in the spotlight.
Well actually, stealing is hitting a big spotlight right now with the nations rising crime rates.
Apparently the left is trying to normalize that too.
.... maybe if we did more caring as we should, the Left would do less "normalizing."
I am not well versed in what orthodox ( I mean traditional Christians in general) Christian counselors prescribe to
guide the affections non traditional partners may have each other. Perhaps a form of sibling love is offered to live by. Perhaps more development is needed here.
Actually, it has more to do with my military outlook.You're stonewalling. And frankly, of all people, I'm quite surprised to you see you stoop to such a measure. I don't see your rhetoric, as short as it is in your post above, as an actual application of the high level of God-given intelligence I know you have. You can do better. It's also not, from my view of the Christian faith, coming as an expression of your faith either. No, it's coming from being locked into a certain evangelical hermeneutic.
I asked you some questions earlier, dear brother. But what did you do instead? You face-palmed me here. I don't appreciate that. It shows that somewhere, even if to a more limited degree, you've been drinking some of the same ol' Kool-aid that so many other proclaimed "American Evangelicals" have been drinking. But, it's time for everyone to put those jugs down and stop drinking.
I've studied the Bible and other biblically related scholarship, from dozens of points of view, for way too long to be taken in by the ideologies of either the Left or the Right. And although I know that there are some political and spiritual nuances about today's spiritual climate I'm sure you and I both actually coalesce on, these more basic, everyday issues about "human value," on the other hand, need to be better handled than they so often are. As it is, issues of "social significance, charity" and whatnot are rather ignored and outright face-palmed without any engagement whatsoever and then, summarily in what is touted as good ol' American fashion, told to "take a hike" ...
That junk, and the evangelical stonewalling that goes with it, needs to stop. Besides, we don't need to live in fear of anti-Christian propaganda that comes at us from the Left.......................................................or from the Right.
Yes, and what He meant by that statement was "there is something you disciples need to do instead right now, but you'll have time to minister to the poor like you should in the very near future."
I agree that we have to have our own house in order, and we have done that poorly. But unfortunately, that's not because we've been busy caring about the rest of the world.The first priority of every Christian is their own household.
1 Timothy 5:8: “But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"
Next we care for fellow Christians in need, 1 Timothy 5:3-16 widow's who have no means of support first. I assume that there was a surplus of widows in persecution era early Christians, so widows without support was a particular concern I think.
It's after that that we expand outward in charity, after our own house is in order.
Where we fail is the above... People are so worried about non Christians they stopped caring about their Christian neighbor.
I can understand that, and I respect that influence.Actually, it has more to do with my military outlook.
I fully expect a singular, core focus to be instilled and developed in the military. I would be shocked to find soldiers without it.What is the core mission? Stop. Think. What is the core mission?
What single thing did Jesus never fail to do wherever He went? What single thing did Paul never fail to do wherever he went?
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