Have you read this?

[Rembrandtfan]

I have been debating whether to post this or not, but here goes.

I chose not to include a link because it contains a graphic word. But if you google "Spirituality: The Crisis Within The Childfree Community" you will find the article I am referring to.

Warning: Parents if you read this, chances are, you will be offended.

I don't necessarily agree with everything it says word for word, but I can relate to the author's frustration with the church.

 

[Amélie Unbound]

I have been debating whether to post this or not, but here goes.

I chose not to include a link because it contains a graphic word. But if you google "Spirituality: The Crisis Within The Childfree Community" you will find the article I am referring to.

Warning: Parents if you read this, chances are, you will be offended.

I don't necessarily agree with everything it says word for word, but I can relate to the author's frustration with the church.

Yes, I came across it a few months ago. I don't have time to read it all again right now, but if I remember correctly, the overall tone of it is a bit hostile and intolerant, and therefore not something I can fully relate to, although there were some points made that resonated with me.

That being said, the church I'm in now is very tolerant and inclusive of childfree couples (and we chose this church very carefully... I sent out e-mails to a large number of pastors in this city, asking what their opinion is of childfree couples, and we narrowed down our list of churches to check out based on the responses), so this kind of thing isn't a big issue for me now, but has been in the past.

I'll read the article again later, and might post more on this when I get time, later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[sparassidae]

Well I certainly wasn't offended, I've read MUCH more offensive childfree stuff before.

I can see where a lot of the author's frustration comes from. I know there is an unspoken expectation that marriage = children.

Here, in all the different churches we have been to, the situation is not quite as bad as over in the US. I've been shocked at the stories you guys have told about Mother's and Father's Day stuff at your churches.

I'm also quite disappointed at the responses over in parenting where some people feel that it is their right to take their children anywhere, and in the author's eg, keep them in church (so they will learn to worship) rather than help them worship (in a special childrens program) in an appropriate way.

I had to laugh at the author's description of children dressed in their 'sunday best'. I've known parents like that, but it's certainly not us. I have a hard time making sure my son goes to church wearing a shirt with no holes in it.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Our Church doesn't have a daycare. All the newborns and kids (we have quiet a few kids) are in the sanctuary. Now the parents take their kids outside the Church when they start crying & what not, but they used to just try to comfort them right there in Church.

Just skimmed the article. Overall, it's pretty good.

 

[Rembrandtfan]

I am fortunate enough to go to a large church that has a nursery, and separate church services for different age groups, that all are going on at the same time as the adult service. I think that's a good idea. I am not for banning children altogether, but I think they and everyone involved, are better off if they are in a child-friendly service. As a matter of fact, my church stresses very strongly that parents are not to bring small children into the adult service, that their children will be much happier in the nursery. Or there are "cry rooms" available in the back of the sanctuary that have a window where the parents can see and hear the service, but you can't hear anything from that room in the sanctuary. On occasion, the adult service includes a group of children singing a song, and baby dedications, and I don't have a problem with it. They have made many efforts to make the church friendly to adults and children alike. But not all churches are able to do this. Smaller churches with less members don't always have the funds or volunteers available to have something separate for the children.

But there does seem to be a subtle tone of anti-childfreedom in my church, that the childfree life equals an unproductive, self-centered life. They might as well just come right out and say it directly in the pulpit. It seems to be discouraged and treated like a problem to be fixed. I resent it. I think this was the part of the article I was able to relate to.

 

[fuzzymel]

I can understand the rant. It is very hard being a Christian and childfree.

Being childfree is not normal in general life but in church is pretty rare (saying that I have had quite a few childfree Christian friends - I think we have to stick together when we find each other).

 

[HeyHomie]

My computer is in the shop so I'm bumming time off others' computers whenever I can right now, so I didn't have time to read the whole article. From what I read, it seems rather hostile, but I'll read the whole thing when I get my PC back.

 

[snoochface]

We're shopping churches again, but the church we first attended here a couple of months ago seemed very tolerant of childfree couples. One of my husband's old friends from years ago is an elder at that church, and one of the first things his wife said to me was that she never had children, never wanted children, and her dogs test her Christianity enough as it is.

Now that we are attending different churches almost every week, I'm surprised at how many of them are child-centric, or at least family-centric. Very few of them focus on the individual. Singles, divorced/widowed, and childfree I think would feel excluded in these churches, implicitly, because of how focused they seem to be on families and children.

It bothers me a lot because it feels like the churches are catering to what draws people "to church" instead of what should draw people to Christ. It's like they are willing to do anything they need to do to get the bodies in the door. I suppose that's naturally going to be the case, but I haven't found these churches to be a good "fit" for me at all.

I've only ever attended three churches in my life, and one of them was before I became a Christian. I'm a little shocked at what's out there, and how hard it is to find a church that fits us.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Fortunately, though our Church doesn't have any daycare, our services are very strict. We have a children's choir, but they usually only sing on special occasions. Our services are very strict. Generally there is no sitting (unless you need to, or if it's the homily or something).

I don't ever remember my priest ever going out to speak out against Childfree people. I don't remember ever being made to feel bad or excluded for not wanting kids. Our priest spends most his sermons encouraging us to become monastics. Or at least to constantly fast from the things of this world. Sometimes he gets a little doom and gloom about it, in my opinion. In my opinion he makes the monastic life sound to simple, just give up everything in this world, become a total vegan, leave your spouse (if you have one) and live in a monastery.

Sorry, but I don't want to be a monk...I don't want to be a monk in a monastery, and I don't want to be a monk anywhere else. "I would not, could not in a house. I would not, could not with a mouse. I will not be a monk here or there, I will not be a monk anywhere".

I can also remember being made to feel bad about being an American. Apparently, materialism didn't exist before America. Before America, no one even knew what money was...let alone oil. I think I even remember my priest empathizing with the terrorists who want to kill us for our materialism (though I don't think he approved of their solution), let me guess they get American Idol & Survivor in Iraq & Afghanistan too? So yeah...my nationalist makes me inherently evil it seems. I remember a guest priest from Greece preaching to us about our material obsession with DVD's. He told us to watch VHS tapes instead. I'm guessing they don't have DVD's in Greece?

They don't call me on being childfree, if I want to skip marriage and just become a monk, that's fine.


There are stories in our Church of married saints who separated (note, not divorced) and went off to different monasteries after their kids grew up. I mean, after the kids have gone, why would you want to stay with your spouse?

For those who are a bit weaker in their faith and cannot muster up the spiritual strength to remove oneself from the world, they can practice the monastic life at home. Married couples are encouraged to embrace their lack of desire in old age. They are encourage to sleep in separate beds and too refrain from relations. Orthodox couples are often encouraged to refrain from relations. Strict traditionalists may perhaps can relations on no more that maybe 50 days out of the year (guessing here). Those 50 days out of 360 are also fairly spread out, the idea is you want to keep the holy days, holy. So no relations the day/night before communion, no relations during any kind of fast and no relations during any kind of feast day.

Abstinence outside of marriage is a must.

Abstinence within marriage is the goal.

Do I need to lock myself in a box to isolate myself from this world? Do I need to starve in order to not be perceived as non-materialistic?
Do I need to forbid myself a hug in order to remove myself from the passions of the flesh.
Should I duck tape my mouth shut?
Should I just remain single then, since (outside of children) the whole goal of married life is to act single?

Like I said, there's the Orthodox Faith and then there's the Orthodox Church.

Note, this entire rant is riddled with my own personal biasness. But thanks for reading my rant. I feel better now.

 

[Rebekka]

Are they truly advising married couples to separate and join a monastery? Wow. Sounds way too drastic to me. I could never leave my husband.

(What about becoming one flesh, and all that?)

 

[snoochface]

Are they truly advising married couples to separate and join a monastery? Wow. Sounds way too drastic to me. I could never leave my husband.

(What about becoming one flesh, and all that?)

Don't confuse the issue with scripture!

 

[127.0.0.1]

Usually when you can't accomplish something, they tell you it's because your not praying hard enough. But I find it difficult to pray night/day unceasingly that I will find the courage to either leave my spouse or never marry and become a monk.

It's a pretty frustrating feeling really.

 

[HeyHomie]

Usually when you can't accomplish something, they tell you it's because your not praying hard enough. But I find it difficult to pray night/day unceasingly that I will find the courage to either leave my spouse or never marry and become a monk.

It's a pretty frustrating feeling really.

Have you considered finding a new church?

 

[127.0.0.1]

If by church you mean faith...
No, nor do I need to.
My problems are with the Orthodox Church not with the Orthodox Faith.
Besides, all that stuff that I keep hearing, isn't dogma.


If by church you just mean parish.
There aren't many Orthodox Churches were I live. There's an Orthodox mission in a town that's about 2hr away (or something like that), but I don't care to go there, I have a feeling it's just more the same since our parish is the one that started that mission, that and it's a long drive.

 

[Rebekka]

I know how you feel - the issues I have with my church aren't dogmas either.

 

[bluebug83]

I read/skimmed most of that article, and yeah it did sound a little more hostile and bitter than I'd like, but made some good points.

Things I liked:
-Churches need to realize that not every woman likes or is good with children (ie, nursery duties, Sunday School teaching etc)
-Many modern churches are too child/family centric, so singles, childless couples, etc can feel a little left out
-Parents can be way too focused on their kids and think they can do no wrong

Things I didn't like so much:
-It is a "privilege" to attend church. Come on, isn't that what Jesus spent his life preaching about - how church is for all people to come exactly as they are.
-Children can never understand religion. I've heard of little kids saying some really profound stuff, it makes me think that sometimes God can use them just like He uses adults.

Totally agree with snooch's comment about how churches focus too much on "how can we get people to church?" rather than "how can we lead people to Jesus?" I once had a conversation with my husband about mega-churches with super fancy facilities, and he said they could be necessary because they help lead materialistic people to God, people who would never think to enter a basic or run-down church facility. Interesting point, but I'm still not so sure how I feel about churches spending that much $ on frills like facilities when there are so many Christian causes that need financial support.

My church does things pretty well, IMO, especially since we're a pretty small church of only about 100 or so. They have a kids group that does 2-3 skit Sundays per year, which seems like a perfectly acceptable amount. And they have Sunday school, nursery, and youth group during the "adult" church service. I think that's a great thing to do for both the adults (get to focus on the sermon and not be interrupted by bored kids) as well as the kids (get to do something that is interesting and spiritually enriching at their level instead of sit through a service that goes above their heads). As well as a healthy kids group and youth group, we have some groups for adults - a men's group and women's group, as well as small groups that meet on a regular basis.

I remember they once had a survey they had the women do on what they wanted to see in a women's group, and I explicitly made note of having no interest in parenting/mothering/etc type topics since I myself am not a mother. I've never attended a women's group event because I've always felt more out of place in groups of my own gender and more relaxed in mixed-gender situations - but I'm happy they at least took the effort to gauge what women in the church are actually interested in discussing instead of defaulting to topics they assume all women are interested in.

 

[bluebug83]

I also like the distinction Rebekka and Command make between "doctrine" and "dogma". Wonderful thing I was taught at the Christian college I went to. And I completely understand how you can feel drawn to a church/faith that may say/do something you personally disagree with, but still want to keep going there because overall you find agreement with it.

My pastor has made no secret of that fact that he loves loves loves little kids and loves it when people in the church have them. My husband nor I have never had any personal discussion with him about our not having kids/wondering if we will ever have them or not, and I'm inclined to believe that he might be a Christian who thinks not having kids is immoral, or if not at least would frown upon seeing someone make that choice. But do I have a desire to leave my church? Absolutely not! I disagree with some stuff my pastor says, but overall love his energy, standing up for what he believes in, and his love for people. And the overall lack of cliquishness among members of the church, which is incredibly rare. I feel so at home there, more than I've ever felt in a church before. Frankly, I don't really care what the people in my church think about my decision to not have kids (at least not right now), as long as they'll still have me in the congregation and as a youth leader.

 

[Rembrandtfan]

I read/skimmed most of that article, and yeah it did sound a little more hostile and bitter than I'd like, but made some good points.

Things I liked:
-Churches need to realize that not every woman likes or is good with children (ie, nursery duties, Sunday School teaching etc)
-Many modern churches are too child/family centric, so singles, childless couples, etc can feel a little left out
-Parents can be way too focused on their kids and think they can do no wrong

Things I didn't like so much:
-It is a "privilege" to attend church. Come on, isn't that what Jesus spent his life preaching about - how church is for all people to come exactly as they are.
-Children can never understand religion. I've heard of little kids saying some really profound stuff, it makes me think that sometimes God can use them just like He uses adults.

Totally agree with snooch's comment about how churches focus too much on "how can we get people to church?" rather than "how can we lead people to Jesus?" I once had a conversation with my husband about mega-churches with super fancy facilities, and he said they could be necessary because they help lead materialistic people to God, people who would never think to enter a basic or run-down church facility. Interesting point, but I'm still not so sure how I feel about churches spending that much $ on frills like facilities when there are so many Christian causes that need financial support.

My church does things pretty well, IMO, especially since we're a pretty small church of only about 100 or so. They have a kids group that does 2-3 skit Sundays per year, which seems like a perfectly acceptable amount. And they have Sunday school, nursery, and youth group during the "adult" church service. I think that's a great thing to do for both the adults (get to focus on the sermon and not be interrupted by bored kids) as well as the kids (get to do something that is interesting and spiritually enriching at their level instead of sit through a service that goes above their heads). As well as a healthy kids group and youth group, we have some groups for adults - a men's group and women's group, as well as small groups that meet on a regular basis.

I remember they once had a survey they had the women do on what they wanted to see in a women's group, and I explicitly made note of having no interest in parenting/mothering/etc type topics since I myself am not a mother. I've never attended a women's group event because I've always felt more out of place in groups of my own gender and more relaxed in mixed-gender situations - but I'm happy they at least took the effort to gauge what women in the church are actually interested in discussing instead of defaulting to topics they assume all women are interested in.

You make some good points.

I attend a megachurch and there is a lot of materialism. Not everyone, but there is a lot of "keeping up with the Jones'" There are people who are all about image, though they wouldn't admit to it. I'm just a plain ordinary person, I'm not as well-dressed, or have a huge house in the richest neighborhood in town. I don't really fit in. There are good things about the church. I like all the different things available. There are many classes, and studies to choose from. They teach sound doctrine from the pulpit, and for the most part, are silent on the things the bible is silent on. It is individuals that I mostly have a problem with. And I have to drive across town to attend this church. I don't know if I'll end up changing churches, but it may be possible in the future, depending on where we're living in a couple years. We may end up moving across town if my husband's job relocates, meaning we will live closer to this church, so we may stay there if this happens.

I agree with Snoochface as well about churches catering to the family rather than the individual. My church seems to be moving in this direction, it hasn't always been this way. Things have really changed in the past ten years. They are constantly singing the praises of people who are having babies, and the more, the better. Nothing wrong with congratulaing people, but it's leaving me, and probably others, out in the cold, the way it is being done. Their New Year's resolution is to focus even more on children this year. Sheesh!

I also agree with what Snoochface said about trying to get bodies in the door. I think their intentions are good, they want to get people in and lead them to Christ. But I think it might make some new people feel like a they're just a project, rather than an individual with unique ideas and needs. Some of the people I first became acquainted with made me feel that way, like I needed to be fixed.

 

[HeyHomie]

Well, Commando182 and RebekkaH, I guess you two come from a mindset that I just can't wrap my brain around. I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you. It's just that I don't get it.

If my church espoused doctrines and attitudes that I found antagonistic or unreasonable, I would leave it. I don't believe that any one church (I by "church" I mean "body of believers united by doctrine/worship style/leadership structure/etc." and NOT "local congregation") has a monopoly on truth.

I mean, I love the Restoration Movement (my church), and will probably attend RM churches for the rest of my life. But if they turned on me I'd be gone. There's just as much truth being preached at the Baptist church across the street, or the Calvary Chapel church down the road, or wherever.

 

[LoveAlways]

I'm with you, HeyHomie. I couldn't do it. I remember a conversation among Orthodox Christians counseling a young man who considered himself gay to marry a woman. After all, sex is such a small part of a marriage, you just have to do it a few years to have your children and then you can both abstain for the faith. How horrible for the young woman who might become his wife-- to be tossed from baby maker to monastery.

I couldn't be a part of a faith that didn't value my marriage or my family planning decisions. I have respect for those who can, though.