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Have massive, apostolic-level healings continued?

TruthSeek3r

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This question is inspired by an insightful post by Bible Highlighter on a thread initiated by Oscarr, in the Controversial Christian Theology section. He said:

Many believers today seem to blur the line between God doing a miracle in His timing vs. the sign gifts given to the apostles for the early church (Which have ceased). There is a difference between the two.

An example of a sign gift would be an apostle of Jesus who has the early church gift of healing and who is able to heal others 100% of the time. There is no apostle alive today who is able to do what the early apostles did. The Bible talks about how Peter healed those who were sick by his shadow. We do not know of any claims of this happening whereby a man of God can heal 100% of the time every time.

The best we got is prayer and sometimes God will heal a person but this would not be a guaranteed healing, and this would not involve the healing of amputees.

At first I thought of posting a reply citing many modern miracle accounts, but then I realized that he has a good point. Bible Highlighter is the sort of Cessationist who believes in modern miracles but rejects the idea of modern apostles who can perform mighty deeds with extremely high frequency and success (as the first century Apostles did).

Question for those more knowledgeable in these matters:

Have massive, apostolic-level healings continued? Does anyone know about men or women of God who God has used mightily in more recent times, with signs and wonders and miracles to a degree comparable to the first century Church?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No.
 
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ARBITER01

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This is the Spirit-filled forum section, we believe in the gifts and it is a reportable offense to speak against them or downplay church leaders.

This was linked to the Controversial Theology Section and needed to be said in this thread before people started getting reported for badmouthing the gifts.
 
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lismore

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A similar question was asked on another thread, asking are there apostles today and who would they be and generated a fair amount of dialogue.

Another facet of this, the writings of an Apostle considered to be inspired scripture, for example 2 Peter 3:16. God Bless
 
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TruthSeek3r

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To get us started, the closest modern example to a 1st century apostle used mightily by God that I'm aware of would be Carlos Annacondia, a revivalist Hispanic preacher, from Argentina. He authored the book "¡Oíme bien Satanás!" (Listen to me, Satan!), available here. The book's preface is self-explanatory:

This is the true story of Carlos Annacondia, whose faithfulness, devotion, and faith in signs and miracles brought about an awakening in Argentina that has spread throughout the world and continues to this day. Annacondia's ministry is marked by the same signs and wonders of the early church—sick bodies are healed, bondages are broken, the demonized are set free, oppression is lifted—and he knows these subjects as very few people do.

Listen to Me, Satan! is full of amazing testimonies that will renew, inspire, and charge your faith. It's the story of how one man confronted the devil, in the authority of the name of Jesus, and experienced extraordinary results. Join him on his journey from the poor villages of Buenos Aires to a global ministry, and find victory and freedom in your own life as well.

Here is a documentary on Carlos Annacondia:


A Christian magazine published an interview with Carlos Annacondia titled Carlos Annacondia: The evangelist at the forefront of revival. Some highlights below:

The evangelist says that he received a message from God in 1981 saying: “Soon, soon, soon. There will be a great revival in Argentina. Argentina will be mine, says the Lord.” Since then, his large-scale rallies, held in cooperation with local churches in towns and cities across the country, have drawn millions of people and seen thousands of new churches planted.

In spiritual terms, the evangelistic events themselves are highly charged. Much fervent prayer precedes each rally, and Annacondia frequently begins on stage by challenging any unclean spirits to make themselves known. Many demonic manifestations invariably occur in the crowd, with intercessors on hand to provide deliverance ministry in a nearby tent. After this, says Annacondia, the atmosphere is cleared for the Holy Spirit to work. Testimonies abound of healing, miracles and conversions, often including gang members and drug addicts.

[...]

So I entered into a hall full of worship and adoration, accompanied by my wife and my children. I started to hear a voice talking to me. “Carlos, you’re so worried about life – for your children’s future, for your businesses – you are unhappy. Give me your heart, I will give you life.” It was the voice of the Lord Jesus. And I started to cry – and it wasn’t easy for me to cry, because I believed if you cry, you are not a man, and that’s what I told my wife as well: men do not cry. But that day I just broke down in tears.

[...]

Ten days after that experience, I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I remember having my hands up to heaven and suddenly I just felt this warmth, this fire that I could not control, and my whole body started to shake and I started to speak in a language that I’d never spoken before.

Things started to happen to me: I’d just be shaking hands with somebody, and the person would say, “Let go, I feel like electricity is in your hands!” I’d just visit somebody I knew, and encounter demonic manifestations with several members of the family that I was visiting. I didn’t yet know what that was, and I had to learn. [...]

[...]

When you first began healing people in the hospital, what did the doctors think of it?

Traditionally speaking, Argentina is a Roman Catholic country, and Catholic people happen to believe in miracles. So they would see a miracle taking place and they would attribute it to God. I never had any problems.

We’ve even seen a number of doctors becoming Christians as a result of their patients receiving a miracle.

If I am ill, I have a doctor friend of mine, and I allow him to diagnose – I’m not superman. I do believe in science, because God created science. We are imperfect preachers of God, and we also suffer; we have our own needs. We do not come against science, we actually partner with this.

 
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dqhall

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Some people believed and were healed of alcoholism, drug addiction and smoking habits. I have heard them testify of their gratitude for being released from the obsessions that tormented them.

The percent of the population smoking cigarettes has been greatly reduced in my lifetime through education and legislation. This is a miracle. Lung cancer takes a person down very fast.

Miracles happen every day, the darkness perceives it not.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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The original Apostles of Christ were unique in he history of the church. They were personally appointed by Christ, witnessed in person the resurrected Christ, specifically commissioned by Christ Himself to preach the Gospel throughout all the world, and had signs and wonders as an integral component in their ministry to the unconverted. They were the unique pioneers of the early church and when they all died that unique ministry died with them. There were only 12 if we include Paul and exclude Matthias (who was appointed by the eleven and not by Christ personally. Paul witnessed the resurrected Christ and was personally appointed by Him). There are no Apostles of Christ in the world today, because it would be impossible for anyone to meet the criteria.

But the Greek word "apostolos" also means "messenger", and there were other apostles mentioned in Acts (Barnabas, Silas, Junia, and others) who were commissioned to preach the Gospel as missionaries, and this lower level apostolic ministry continued until the church became formalised under the bishops and ultimately the Bishop of Rome. "Apostolos" could well apply to modern missionaries who go into foreign countries and plant churches where no churches existed before. Some have experienced signs and wonders as part of their ministries and others haven't.

Also, in Acts, there were Stephen and Philip whose ministries involved signs and wonders. They were identified as deacons rather than apostles. This supports other evangelistic ministries involving signs and wonders, and Anaconda, the Argentine evangelist would fit into that type of ministry.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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There are no Apostles of Christ in the world today, because it would be impossible for anyone to meet the criteria.

What exactly would be impossible to meet today? Miracles are not impossible today, right? What about physical appearances of Jesus? Do you think they are impossible today? Have you ever heard of "Christophanies"?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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What exactly would be impossible to meet today? Miracles are not impossible today, right? What about physical appearances of Jesus? Do you think they are impossible today? Have you ever heard of "Christophanies"?
The presence of Jesus is among us through the indwelling Holy Spirit. There are no genuine physical appearances of Jesus before His second coming. Nowhere does Jesus say that He will visit the world in person before then. Some have had visions of Jesus but these are not physical appearances. Paul's meeting with Jesus was unique and for the specific purpose of calling Paul as an Apostle of Christ. The Apostle John had just a vivid vision of Jesus while in the Spirit on the Lord's day and he fell at His feet as if dead. This means that a true physical appearance of the resurrected, glorified Christ would be too much for any mortal man. So, any physical appearance of Jesus in the appearance of an ordinary man is a counterfeit, a demon in disguise. The Scripture says that Satan can appear as an angel of light and so he is well capable to appearing as a facsimile of Jesus in order to deceive people.

In His parable about the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus had Abraham say to the rich man who wanted Lazarus to rise from the dead to go and warn his brothers not to come to this terrible place where he was, that his brothers had Moses and the Prophets (the Old Testament Scriptures) and if they wouldn't believe them, the appearance of someone coming back from the dead wouldn't convince them.

The Scripture is quite clear that any physical representation of God or of Jesus is idolatry because we worship God in spirit and in truth, depending on the description of Jesus in the written Gospels and New Testament letters.

The indwelling Holy Spirit is Jesus' representative in the lives of the believers, and he is the fulfillment of "Christ in us, the hope of glory". Having the indwelling Holy Spirit means that no one needs any physical appearance of Jesus to override Him.

One saint of God, when asked whether he would like to be visited by Jesus, said, "No. I don't want to see Him until I meet Him face to face in glory."
 
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TruthSeek3r

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The presence of Jesus is among us through the indwelling Holy Spirit. There are no genuine physical appearances of Jesus before His second coming.
Where does the Bible say this? Paul's Damascus Road encounter is a clear counterexample and refutes that statement.

Nowhere does Jesus say that He will visit the world in person before then.
Nor does Jesus say that He will not. In fact, He did, with Paul, on the Road to Damascus. And He never said that He wouldn't do it ever again.

Some have had visions of Jesus but these are not physical appearances. Paul's meeting with Jesus was unique and for the specific purpose of calling Paul as an Apostle of Christ.
How do you know this? How do you know it was unique? Where does the Bible say that Jesus would never grant "Damascus Road" encounters again to anyone after Paul?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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It has been 2000 years since the Damascus Road encounter and no repeat of that type of encounter has been reported since. Paul's apostleship was unique and has never been repeated. Also, no subsequent believer has had his writing deemed as being directly inspired by the Holy Spirit and recognised as Scripture.

Also, Jesus made it quite clear that when He went away to be seated at the right hand of God in glory, He will send the Holy Spirit to be our guide until He returns again. Jesus is at the right hand of God interceding for the saints. The next time He visits the earth in person it will be when He comes again and every eye shall see him.

Seeing that Jesus has sent the Holy Spirit to be His representative on earth, there is no need for Him to come to visit earth before the second coming. Having the indwelling Holy Spirit makes any personal visitation by Jesus totally unnecessary, because the Holy Spirit provides everything we need.
 
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jiminpa

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The problem with that philosophy is that the Bible never declares any office or gift closed before we see face to face.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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It has been 2000 years since the Damascus Road encounter and no repeat of that type of encounter has been reported since.

Are you completely sure about that? Have you exhaustively investigated every single testimony of every human being who has ever existed over the course of the last 2000 years of history?

Have you ever heard of Christophanies? Have you investigated testimonies of Christophanies?

For example, have you heard of stories of Muslims who had physical encounters with the risen Christ?

Paul's apostleship was unique and has never been repeated.

I mean, sure, every ministry is unique, no two ministries are exactly equal. Not even Peter, John or the other apostles were able to imitate the ministry of Paul. Does that mean they were "less of an apostle"?

Also, no subsequent believer has had his writing deemed as being directly inspired by the Holy Spirit and recognised as Scripture.

Nor most of the 12 apostles. Where are the inspired writings of Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus and Simon who was called the Zealot?


Yet He had no problem with paying a visit to Paul on the road to Damascus. Why would He have any issues doing that again?


But He still can do it if He wants to. Paul's encounter is a clear example.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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The problem with that philosophy is that the Bible never declares any office or gift closed before we see face to face.
God has never changed concerning the ministries and gifts He instituted into the body of Christ. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. What has changed is the church and that is the reason why the ministries and gifts declined, and the church in general has not recovered to the point where the ministries and gifts can resume on a widespread basis.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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You can answer your questions when you do your own exhaustive study of Church history and every single testimony of people's encounter with God. Didn't Paul say in Romans 3, "You who teach others, will you teach yourself?" In other words, if you are to instruct me to do exhaustive research to answer the questions, are you doing the same?

As a matter of fact, I have studied church history from the early church to the turn of the 20th Century. It is interesting that most of the reported sightings of personal visitations of Jesus have described Him as a European with long straight hair and a Renaissance beard, as depicted in the artists' impressions of Him. What proves that these are counterfeits is that Jesus was not European. Also physical representations of God or Jesus are forbidden and are viewed as idolatry in Scripture. Also, there are as many reports of visitation by the Virgin Mary, who is also represented as a young European female.

If people are desiring personal visitations by Jesus or the Virgin Mary, it is because they are in the flesh and not in the Spirit, and therefore desire to relate to God and Jesus in the flesh, and ignore the indwelling Spirit who is there to provide true fellowship.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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I never said that I am to instruct you to do exhaustive research. I simply asked you the basis for your absolutist claim that "it has been 2000 years since the Damascus Road encounter and no repeat of that type of encounter has been reported since". That's a pretty strong claim. You are affirming that absolutely no one has ever been visited by Jesus since Paul. Over the span of 2000 years of history. Not even one, zero. Among thousands of millions of human beings who have lived on earth over that period ...

Please forgive me, but I can't let you make strong claims like that without asking you to provide the evidence to support it.
 
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jiminpa

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Yes, the church has changed. The church is as full of unbelief as those whom Jesus couldn't minister to when He bodily walked the Earth.
 
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All one has to do is use their brain when reading the Scripture. Jesus has ascended to be at the right hand of God and is interceding night and day for the saints of God. He sent the Holy Spirit to the church to take His place on earth - to represent Him. There is no need for Him to come back to earth before the appointed time because the Third Person of the Godhead is here to give us all the direction we need for our spiritual lives.

I accept that some have visions of Jesus, but never personal visitations. When Jesus said He was going to come again, He didn't mean that He was going to come on multiple occasions to pay visits to "special" people. The indwelling Holy Spirit is equal in all respects to Jesus, so it makes no sense to have the Holy Spirit Who is not only with us but in us, and have Jesus here in person at the same time. The representation that the Holy Spirit performs is a complete representation and everything that Jesus would say and do on earth is done by the Holy Spirit.

I can't imagine Jesus saying to the Father, "I have to stop interceding for the believers right now, because I have to leave Your throne and pay a personal visit to Brother Zlogg to encourage him. The Father might say to Jesus: "Wouldn't the Holy Spirit do what needs to be done. He is quite capable, seeing that He is representing you." Jesus might reply, "But the good brother thinks the Holy Spirit is some kind of mist that hovers over him instead of the Divine Person that He is, so I have to go to the brother and put him right. But, because there's another whole batch of believers I have to intercede for, I'll raise the Virgin Mary from the dead and she can go instead."
 
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