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Discussion and Debate
Discussion and Debate
Ethics & Morality
Halloween and "cultural appropriation".
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<blockquote data-quote="muichimotsu" data-source="post: 75711498" data-attributes="member: 149131"><p>Like just having some humility to consider you might be wrong in your perspective from whatever lived experience you have that makes you think black people aren't disproportionately affected by systemic issues that are still in need of confronting. Again, privilege and a sense of magnanimity that prefers a status quo instead of any kind of challenge to it</p><p></p><p></p><p>Never said you had to do that, but a sense of empathy is very different from mere sympathy, which is what you're doing, removed from the experiences of those who have to deal with things you apparently haven't</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Need I point to slavery, Jim Crow laws, the Confederacy's primary reason for persisting in its treason? Black people don't just suddenly became equal or treated with equity merely because the law has changed, much as some people would like to think. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh, cute, you think white supremacy only manifests in one way and also buy into the idea that BLM is racist without even trying to substantiate how. Enlighten me how an organization that is pointing out that there is a problem in America with how black people are marginalized is remotely being racist?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I know enough about people to consider that we aren't perfect and cannot claim it ever, because we necessarily have subjectivity in our nature, we cannot just turn off biases, we recognize them in terms of our brain adjusting through interactions. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Never did, I simply stated that this isn't some isolated statistic you're trying to downplay like most black people are just fine</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>I didn't claim society was unified in that sense, and I'd seriously doubt you're referring to some place in America where white people are treated disproportionately, versus them simply not being a demographic majority in some areas, which is not the sole factor involved with systemic disparities</p><p></p><p></p><p>You certainly seem to be acting like I'm pinning all the blame on whites, I'm not, just a majority in terms of our privileged status (not socioeconomically, just making that clear again)</p><p></p><p></p><p>And that makes it even somehow? I'm not saying someone cannot be prejudiced against white people, but racism in that sense is an exception to the rule with a society that has white people as the assumed default in their history and still arguably does even if we're shifting</p><p></p><p></p><p>Some of the issue is just delusions of grandeur, but when a society presents white people as the heroes more often than non whites that can condition your expectations</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Whiteness is a generalized racial idea that isn't nearly as stable in its formation as blackness was as a response to preserving that identity in a society that was far more flexible as to what counted as white in a way that isn't nearly so with blackness in history. For so much of time, race was assumed as something that indicated physical differences on a biological level, not merely phenotype, so that's another important factor. </p><p></p><p>It appears to be difficult for you to challenge yourself in this idea that being white is not free of any kind of baggage and cannot just be severed from the historical context that indicates colonialism and imperialism from white majority cultures thinking they just had a divine right of manifest destiny to conquer every non white in their path "for their own good," ala Christopher Columbus (Italian, but considered white in the same way many Europeans were lumped into being white over time)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I said, anecdotal evidence is a start, not the substance overall, which has to take into account other experiences as well, otherwise you're engaging in solipsism</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Glorification perhaps may be a poor expression that has academic specificity I'm not aware of, but the general idea I gather is that whiteness is treated differently, preferentially, by many, but not all, in that sense of being white in the more general way as the acceptable consensus idea, while being black doesn't have those implications necessarily</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Yet you seem to think it doesn't really matter in the present at all, as if that historical reality doesn't persist in the minds of some, even if they might be a more extreme example of clinging to the past or engaging in historical denialism about American's racial issues</p><p></p><p></p><p>Only if you understand privilege in a sense that skews towards your idea that everyone treats everyone else equally regardless of race and there's no subconscious elements or social conditioning to consider even from well meaning people that aren't being malicious. That's moving the goalposts to the point the game doesn't matter anymore</p><p></p><p></p><p>Of course you'd reference someone that tries the same downplaying and using the word "equal" as if that's what is being debated at all. Equality is an illusory pursuit in the absolute sense, equity is what is sought, trying to make opportunities the same for everyone who puts in the work rather than just accepting that black people, in the context of the discussion, are not given the same benefits in terms of systemic socioeconomic benefits of accrued generational wealth and positive societal regard for centuries that white people have had and never struggled for at all.</p><p></p><p>You're also trying to pigeonhole people into a false dichotomy you have of "liberal and conservative"</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="muichimotsu, post: 75711498, member: 149131"] Like just having some humility to consider you might be wrong in your perspective from whatever lived experience you have that makes you think black people aren't disproportionately affected by systemic issues that are still in need of confronting. Again, privilege and a sense of magnanimity that prefers a status quo instead of any kind of challenge to it Never said you had to do that, but a sense of empathy is very different from mere sympathy, which is what you're doing, removed from the experiences of those who have to deal with things you apparently haven't Need I point to slavery, Jim Crow laws, the Confederacy's primary reason for persisting in its treason? Black people don't just suddenly became equal or treated with equity merely because the law has changed, much as some people would like to think. Oh, cute, you think white supremacy only manifests in one way and also buy into the idea that BLM is racist without even trying to substantiate how. Enlighten me how an organization that is pointing out that there is a problem in America with how black people are marginalized is remotely being racist? I know enough about people to consider that we aren't perfect and cannot claim it ever, because we necessarily have subjectivity in our nature, we cannot just turn off biases, we recognize them in terms of our brain adjusting through interactions. Never did, I simply stated that this isn't some isolated statistic you're trying to downplay like most black people are just fine I didn't claim society was unified in that sense, and I'd seriously doubt you're referring to some place in America where white people are treated disproportionately, versus them simply not being a demographic majority in some areas, which is not the sole factor involved with systemic disparities You certainly seem to be acting like I'm pinning all the blame on whites, I'm not, just a majority in terms of our privileged status (not socioeconomically, just making that clear again) And that makes it even somehow? I'm not saying someone cannot be prejudiced against white people, but racism in that sense is an exception to the rule with a society that has white people as the assumed default in their history and still arguably does even if we're shifting Some of the issue is just delusions of grandeur, but when a society presents white people as the heroes more often than non whites that can condition your expectations Whiteness is a generalized racial idea that isn't nearly as stable in its formation as blackness was as a response to preserving that identity in a society that was far more flexible as to what counted as white in a way that isn't nearly so with blackness in history. For so much of time, race was assumed as something that indicated physical differences on a biological level, not merely phenotype, so that's another important factor. It appears to be difficult for you to challenge yourself in this idea that being white is not free of any kind of baggage and cannot just be severed from the historical context that indicates colonialism and imperialism from white majority cultures thinking they just had a divine right of manifest destiny to conquer every non white in their path "for their own good," ala Christopher Columbus (Italian, but considered white in the same way many Europeans were lumped into being white over time) As I said, anecdotal evidence is a start, not the substance overall, which has to take into account other experiences as well, otherwise you're engaging in solipsism Glorification perhaps may be a poor expression that has academic specificity I'm not aware of, but the general idea I gather is that whiteness is treated differently, preferentially, by many, but not all, in that sense of being white in the more general way as the acceptable consensus idea, while being black doesn't have those implications necessarily Yet you seem to think it doesn't really matter in the present at all, as if that historical reality doesn't persist in the minds of some, even if they might be a more extreme example of clinging to the past or engaging in historical denialism about American's racial issues Only if you understand privilege in a sense that skews towards your idea that everyone treats everyone else equally regardless of race and there's no subconscious elements or social conditioning to consider even from well meaning people that aren't being malicious. That's moving the goalposts to the point the game doesn't matter anymore Of course you'd reference someone that tries the same downplaying and using the word "equal" as if that's what is being debated at all. Equality is an illusory pursuit in the absolute sense, equity is what is sought, trying to make opportunities the same for everyone who puts in the work rather than just accepting that black people, in the context of the discussion, are not given the same benefits in terms of systemic socioeconomic benefits of accrued generational wealth and positive societal regard for centuries that white people have had and never struggled for at all. You're also trying to pigeonhole people into a false dichotomy you have of "liberal and conservative" [/QUOTE]
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Halloween and "cultural appropriation".
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