Hahn on Eschatology.....Unorthodox?

[parousia70]

Hya Folks!
Has Anyone here listened to Scott Hahn's audio series "The End", his verse by verse exposition of the Book of Revelation?

As a relatively new Catholic, I owe much to Dr. Hahn, for his works almost singlehandedly helped me overcome every single objection I once had to Catholicism. Because of my admiration and gratitude toward Dr. Hahn, I am having a tough time believing he could be so off base about something so important as eschatology.

When I first was lent a copy of this audio series by my priest, I listened to it over and over about 7 or 8 times, and for the first time in my Christian life, I felt I had come across an eschatological viewpoint that was actually consistant, accountable to both scripture and tradition, preserving original audience relevance, as well as ongoing, indeed eternal, application.

Any insight would be appreciated, but I'd especially like to hear from those of you familiar with Hahn's series "The End", and his stance on Typology, apocalyptic language, the Millennium, the changing of the covenants, the importance of AD70, etc....

Thanks a bundle!
P70

(Mods, I ask that you please don't move this thread to eschatology, for I am interested in a strictly Catholic response, Thanx!)

 

[parousia70]

Bump....

Anyone have any insight at all?

I know this topic might not be as enticing as the eucharist on ebay, or the "how Catholic are you?" quiz, but It remains important to me and I am struggling with the implications, so I'll try to keep it on page one even if I have to all by myself.

Peace.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

I had "The End," but just lent it out at my church and they got broke

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

Bump....

Anyone have any insight at all?

I know this topic might not be as enticing as the eucharist on ebay, or the "how Catholic are you?" quiz, but It remains important to me and I am struggling with the implications, so I'll try to keep it on page one even if I have to all by myself.

Peace.

Well, I haven't heard this series of lectures, so I can't comment, sorry.

 

[parousia70]

Bumping this back up for discussion.... I realize another OBOB thread has since leaned in this direction, but hey, can anyone really object to one more thread in OBOB anyway?

 

[kimber1]

heh, thanks i'd thought i'd lost my mind, i couldn't find this

 

[Michelina]

I enjoyed the series tremendously. Hahn is perfectly orthodox as always.

 

[NDIrish]

These don't happen to be in the EWTN audio library, do they?

 

[parousia70]

These don't happen to be in the EWTN audio library, do they?

I know they are For sale By Scott thru St Joe Comm. among other places.... Leade me to believe the would not be available for free download.

$65 for the set plus the study guide... I'm saving my Milk money.... The times I heard it was on old audio tape copies....

 

[NDIrish]

Just out of curiosity, what specifically do you think he's off on with respect to these tapes? Or was it just a general question?

 

[parousia70]

I enjoyed the series tremendously. Hahn is perfectly orthodox as always.

GREAT! Me to. enjoyed the series that is, I strive to be perfectly orthodox, but I know I have not always lived up to that task, so I like to keep testing my understanding against previously established orthodox thinking so I can "right my ship" whenever necessary

Do you have any specific thoughts on his application of Typology, The significance of AD70, Apocalyptic language, the Millennium?

 

[thereselittleflower]

GREAT! Me to. enjoyed the series that is, I strive to be perfectly orthodox, but I know I have not always lived up to that task, so I like to keep testing my understanding against previously established orthodox thinking so I can "right my ship" whenever necessary

Do you have any specific thoughts on his application of Typology, The significance of AD70, Apocalyptic language, the Millennium?

Eschatology in Catholicism is very different than how many in Protestantism view it . . . Scott Hahn is ammilenial which is a VERY Catholic view . . .

I am just now reading The Lamb's Supper, his book on Revelation revealing the Mass revealed in Revelation

According to the Amillenialist view, we are in the millenium now . . . Both this view, as well as Post Millenialism and partial preterism, are acceptable views for Catholics to hold to.

The questions you are asking could mushroom into a full blown discussion that would be very good and very interesting to have . . they are not simply answered . . . I would love to have a study of these things led by those here who are really knowledgable about them . . . I am knowledgable about dispensationalism and millenialism and why they are false doctrines and beliefs systems . . .Once I realized this, my need to understand end times ebbed a great deal, so I have not focused on this subject at any great length . . .

I wonder if there is anyone here who feels up to taking this up.


John Paul pray for us

 

[kimber1]

i always saw hahn as a partial preterist. is that compatable with amillienialism?

 

[Michelina]

GREAT! Me to. enjoyed the series that is, I strive to be perfectly orthodox, but I know I have not always lived up to that task, so I like to keep testing my understanding against previously established orthodox thinking so I can "right my ship" whenever necessary

Do you have any specific thoughts on his application of Typology, The significance of AD70, Apocalyptic language, the Millennium?

I would have to review it, Parousia. (Hey, with a name like that, I can see how interested you are in this subject.) What I remember most was my pleasure in his presentation being so solidly Catholic and solidly Biblical. Scott Hahn is a gift from God to the Catholic Church in America. With folks like Brown dominating the establishment, we needed someone like him.

 

[Benedicta00]

Eschatology in Catholicism is very different than how many in Protestantism view it . . . Scott Hahn is ammilenial which is a VERY Catholic view . . .

I am just now reading The Lamb's Supper, his book on Revelation revealing the Mass revealed in Revelation

According to the Amillenialist view, we are in the millenium now . . . Both this view, as well as Post Millenialism and partial preterism, are acceptable views for Catholics to hold to.

The questions you are asking could mushroom into a full blown discussion that would be very good and very interesting to have . . they are not simply answered . . . I would love to have a study of these things led by those here who are really knowledgable about them . . . I am knowledgable about dispensationalism and millenialism and why they are false doctrines and beliefs systems . . .Once I realized this, my need to understand end times ebbed a great deal, so I have not focused on this subject at any great length . . .

I wonder if there is anyone here who feels up to taking this up.


John Paul pray for us

How about if we start with what is the differnce between the three views?

 

[WarriorAngel]

IMO, Apocalypse aka Revelation, is subjective.
Inspired souls may have a grasp.

Dr. Hahn brings to light the small but significant scriptural details revealing that just as Jesus is the "New Adam," so Mary is the "New Eve." And how just as the Old Testament ark was made to bear the old covenant, the Virgin Mary was made to bear the new covenant,

IS this the problem?
What part do you find disconcerting...is more my question.

 

[parousia70]

Eschatology in Catholicism is very different than how many in Protestantism view it . . . Scott Hahn is ammilenial which is a VERY Catholic view . . .

That's My understanding of His view as well, however in "The End" he poses the notion that St John's Typological, non literal "Milennium" has as it's roots, the earthly duration of the Davidic Monarchy, The peroid From David to Christ, which lasted approx 1000 years.

I am just now reading The Lamb's Supper, his book on Revelation revealing the Mass revealed in Revelation

I loved it!
Think of "The End" as "The Lambs Supper" SUPERSIZED!
While the Lambs supper focuses on The Typology of the Mass in Revelation, The End goes into far greater detail, and goes beyond the mass into the actual prophesies, their then contemporary 1st century fulfillment, their ongoing application to all generations, and how it forshadows the future creedal consumation.

As St Joe communications says regarding "The End":
"the bedrock insights presented in this remarkable eleven-tape tour-de-force represent the theological foundation for The Lamb's Supper; the #1 best seller that's been topping the Catholic book lists for over a year!

According to the Amillenialist view, we are in the millenium now . . . Both this view, as well as Post Millenialism and partial preterism, are acceptable views for Catholics to hold to.

I'd sure like to get into the nitty-gritty of this.
The devil's in the details, don't ya know......

The questions you are asking could mushroom into a full blown discussion that would be very good and very interesting to have . . they are not simply answered . . . I would love to have a study of these things led by those here who are really knowledgable about them . . . I am knowledgable about dispensationalism and millenialism and why they are false doctrines and beliefs systems . . .Once I realized this, my need to understand end times ebbed a great deal, so I have not focused on this subject at any great length . . .

I wonder if there is anyone here who feels up to taking this up.

It's kinda whay I started this thread.

Let me give a little background about my journey.
I am a recent Convert to Catholicism, ex presbyterian, ex- FULL preterist.

In my own Biblical study, using the hermeneutical principle of letting scripture interprate scripture, and applying that to non eschatological issues, I kept finding evidence I could not ignore, supporting that the Catholic Church is the Church begun by Christ and the apostles.

As I grew more and more confident that The Catholic Church was indeed the "Holy catholic and apostolic Church" my Biggest struggle in accepting Catholicism was the need to abandon Full preterism, and then came Dr. Scott Hahn to the rescue!

After listening to "The End" about half a dozen times while I was going through RCIA (My preist lent me an old copy of a copy on tape) and bringing up the subject in the class ( I think my classmates got a bit tired of "Mr end times" asking another eschatology question again...) I became increasingly comfortable with Hahn's view, as I understood it, and finally came to accept his as the only view that I had found honors both Scripture and tradition.

What I was hoping to get a better handle on via this thread, is just how far Dr. Hahn goes with Biblical eschatology.

My understanding is that He believes Biblical eschatology and Creedal eschatology are related typologically, and not in a "verse by verse" manner.

Hahn's detail on the resurrection however is a bit foggy to me.
From my understanding of resurrection (which is VERY limited), it encompasses baptismal regeneration, (we died with Christ and we were [past tense] raised with Christ) the removal of the O.T. saints from Hades to Heaven, and the future final heavenly state of bodily existence. While all orthodox preterists fully affirm the Nicene future "resurrection of the dead," there is always some debate among partial preterists over whether the Old Testament saints left Hades to enter Heaven at AD 30 or at AD 70.

As I understood Hahn's view, he comes down on the side of the removal of the OT saints from Hades into heaven having taken place at 70AD, which culminated the 40 year transition period between the Old Covanant and New.

From "The End", as I recall, Dr. Hahn basically States that The Full preterists are correct on all counts EXCEPT that a 1st century fulfillment is all there is.
As I understood him, he confirms that Biblical eschatology found it's PRIMARY fulfillment in the events surrounding Jerusalems AD70 destruction, while that fulfillment in turn forshadows the Creedal consumation wich is yet future and will unfold in a time and manner known only to God.

I remember him stating that if it weren't for the Creed's looking for a future, final consumation beyond 70AD, and His submittance to it's authority, He Could be a full preterist.

I find myself in that same camp today.

For those familiar with this series, Do I understand Hahn correctly?

 

[anawim]

i always saw hahn as a partial preterist. is that compatable with amillienialism?

Partial Preterism is a Protestant term. The Catholic equivalent is Preterist. What Protestants call Full Preterist, Catholics refer to as Hyper-Preterist.

 

[anawim]

Hahn's detail on the resurrection however is a bit foggy to me.
From my understanding of resurrection (which is VERY limited), it encompasses baptismal regeneration, (we died with Christ and we were [past tense] raised with Christ) the removal of the O.T. saints from Hades to Heaven, and the future final heavenly state of bodily existence. While all orthodox preterists fully affirm the Nicene future "resurrection of the dead," there is always some debate among partial preterists over whether the Old Testament saints left Hades to enter Heaven at AD 30 or at AD 70.

Resurrection is different than baptismal regeneration. Baptismal regeneration is being born again. Resurrection is both spiritual and physical. The spiritual occurs at the end of a person's life, and the physical at the end of time at the final coming & general judgement.

As I understood Hahn's view, he comes down on the side of the removal of the OT saints from Hades into heaven having taken place at 70AD, which culminated the 40 year transition period between the Old Covanant and New.

OT saints were released form Hades on Easter Sunday.

From "The End", as I recall, Dr. Hahn basically States that The Full preterists are correct on all counts EXCEPT that a 1st century fulfillment is all there is.
As I understood him, he confirms that Biblical eschatology found it's PRIMARY fulfillment in the events surrounding Jerusalems AD70 destruction, while that fulfillment in turn forshadows the Creedal consumation wich is yet future and will unfold in a time and manner known only to God.

Scott said that he is primarily a preterist, but also a futurist. The book of Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD, but this fulfillment can itself stand as a prophecy of a yet future fulfillment at the end of time.

I remember him stating that if it weren't for the Creed's looking for a future, final consumation beyond 70AD, and His submittance to it's authority, He would be a full preterist.

I find myself in that same camp today.

For those familiar with this series, Do I understand Hahn correctly?

I guess two people can listen to the same thing and get a different understanding. I never heard Scott say anything about partial/full.

PS. I did read David Currie explain that hyper preterism (what you are calling full preterist) was something inveneted by the Protestand dispensationalists.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I havent heard it, but from my understanding...souls are yet in purgatory...and in the end the ones left there shall rise with all souls.

They are being left for judgement.

UNLESS we who are living do sacrifice for them.
Matthew said the souls from Hades were seen in the cities...
in HIS GOSPEL. They arose from their tombs.

AD 70?

I just know it occured when Christ was dead.

Like I said, we cannot base entire beliefs on Revelation..but it can be determined, by study.
Hahn is a theologian. How he gets his reasoning must be from imbued studies..
BUT again, one cannot either credit or discredit the study of Revelation.

BUT..I see how the Old Testament mirrored and brought the New Testament.

Abraham was about to sacrifice his only son...
God DID sacrifice His only Son.

etc... Sorry...if i had the tape of Hahn I could better help..I am sorry to say, I only have one tape of his.

BUT again, do not base your entire belief system on one man's findings in Revelation..it is too subjective to reason.

But from I have heard in the one tape I own.... he is right on!
I feel I am amillienialist.