As christians we hear so much about dramatic conversions to Christ and instant deliverance from sinful patterns and desires. What happens though if somebody commits their life to Jesus and then finds it impossible to overcome sinful behaviour. For arguments sake the alchoholic who becomes a christian but still can't stop drinking. How as christians do we view this?
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Habitual Sin and Loss of Salvation?
- Thread starter Alex.C
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Likely this (1 John 3:4-8):
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
However, drinking is one thing, habitually given over to being drunk is another. The practicing sin also implies to practice sin, they continue to get drunk because they desire it to satisfy their sinful flesh. They willfully lust after such pleasures.
This is not the same thing as one who is born again because the Holy Spirit will convict those doing such things and they will be among the most miserable people on the planet until they repent. Been there, done that.
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So would you agree from what youve said that the one who cannot overcome sinful patterns and the fufilment of the flesh [ even though their failiure goes against what he/she desires to do in Christ ] is not saved? If this is the case is it only the mentally strong, who can control their thought life and ensuing actions who are saved? Its an area that Ive been looking into recently and seems to be a complex issue.
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Tamara. The works in progress view implies a greater or different kind of grace than alot of charismatic preachers preach. What about the christian with unresolved habitual sin who is repentent but continues to grow in the sin rather than the holy spirit, yet that person had deffinatly encountered the holy spirit and has prophecies over his/her life. I guess an absolute definition of repentence also needs to be established. Is it a change of mind or a complete physical about turn?
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No. I tried to be clear on what practicing sin implies. I'll try again.
Being mentally strong has nothing to do with it. Being born again, changing one's nature from desiring sin to desiring to follow God's commandments has everything to do with it. This is why when a believer lives with sin, they are convicted by the Spirit, because they are behaving not only against God's desires, but our own desires as well.
If one is able to habitually crave and practice sin without this conviction, that's a good sign they are still dead in their sins. Put a weight on the chest of a living man, and he'll struggle with it. Put the same weight on the chest of a dead man, and it makes no difference to that man one way or the other.
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zaksmummy
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The Hebrew word for repentance is "T'shuva" which literally means "to turn around" or to "re-turn around".
One scripture which has become ingrained in me is the one that says "we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us" - although apparently the Greek in its original form says "we can do all things with Christ who strengthens us", in other words, we cannot do it by ourselves, only with Jesus, can we change.
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lismore
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We shouldn't view this.
Jesus told a parable. There was a religious man who prayed thanking God he was not a sinner like his neighbours. Then there was a sinner who prayed that God would have mercy on him. It was the second who was commended by Christ.
We shouldn't judge others, we dont have all the facts. Only God can judge. All we can do is answer to God for our own wrongdoings. Other people's wrongdoings are between them and God.
God Bless
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God has already judged sin. If you're caugt speeding, I'm not judging you by saying it's a $160 fine, that's the penalty for the crime. To tell me I'm not to judge the punishment for speeding makes as much sense as saying not to judge what God has already told us the punishment is.
"Judge not lest you be judged. You therefore have no right to judge me when it comes to my sins!"
The world often takes this verse out of context and uses it to accuse Christians of being "judgmental" when they speak of sin. In the context of the verse Jesus is telling His disciples not to judge one another, something the Bible condemns (Romans 14:10; James 4:11). In Luke 6:41,42 He speaks of seeing a speck in a brother’s eye. In John 7:24 He said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." If someone steals, lies, commits adultery or murder, etc., the Christian can make a (righteous) moral judgment and say that the actions were morally wrong, and that these sins will have eternal consequences. Chuck Colson said, "True tolerance is not a total lack of judgment. It’s knowing what should be tolerated—and refusing to tolerate that which shouldn’t."
"Judge not lest you be judged. You therefore have no right to judge me when it comes to my sins!"
The world often takes this verse out of context and uses it to accuse Christians of being "judgmental" when they speak of sin. In the context of the verse Jesus is telling His disciples not to judge one another, something the Bible condemns (Romans 14:10; James 4:11). In Luke 6:41,42 He speaks of seeing a speck in a brother’s eye. In John 7:24 He said, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." If someone steals, lies, commits adultery or murder, etc., the Christian can make a (righteous) moral judgment and say that the actions were morally wrong, and that these sins will have eternal consequences. Chuck Colson said, "True tolerance is not a total lack of judgment. It’s knowing what should be tolerated—and refusing to tolerate that which shouldn’t."
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The OP raises a good question. However, this thread is getting nowhere not answering the original question.
People assume that if a supposed Christian continues to habitually engage in a particular sin, then that person is "willfully lusting" after that sin. That is however not what the OP is asking.
Take for eg, the example in the OP-drunkeness. Not everyone who gets drunken regularly is "willfully lusting" after drunkeness. For sure, many do. Many people eagerly anticipate the end of the working week when they can go out and drink and get drunk. No convictions, no guilt, just happily indulging in it.
But what the OP is saying is what about those Christians who habitually indulge in sin not out of willful lust, but simply because they are overtaken by temptation? I'm talking about for eg, the Christian who does have convictions and guilt if he/she gets drunk. I'm talking about the Christian who tries and holds out for as long as possible drinking and getting drunk, but eventually gives in because of temptation. They have regret and remose and they sincerely to repent again-until it happens the next time. They hold out for a couple of weeks or a couple of months going out and drinking until one weekend they can not hold out anymore and give in.
What about these types of Christians who are not willful sinners but weak and overcome by temptations?
People assume that if a supposed Christian continues to habitually engage in a particular sin, then that person is "willfully lusting" after that sin. That is however not what the OP is asking.
Take for eg, the example in the OP-drunkeness. Not everyone who gets drunken regularly is "willfully lusting" after drunkeness. For sure, many do. Many people eagerly anticipate the end of the working week when they can go out and drink and get drunk. No convictions, no guilt, just happily indulging in it.
But what the OP is saying is what about those Christians who habitually indulge in sin not out of willful lust, but simply because they are overtaken by temptation? I'm talking about for eg, the Christian who does have convictions and guilt if he/she gets drunk. I'm talking about the Christian who tries and holds out for as long as possible drinking and getting drunk, but eventually gives in because of temptation. They have regret and remose and they sincerely to repent again-until it happens the next time. They hold out for a couple of weeks or a couple of months going out and drinking until one weekend they can not hold out anymore and give in.
What about these types of Christians who are not willful sinners but weak and overcome by temptations?
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Yitzchak
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Paul prayed this prayer.
The rooted and grounded in love part is very important.
I would counsel him to not give up. There are actually two words in Hebrew for repentance. Maybe more , but at least two main ones that I am aware of. One is teshuvah which was mentioned already. Which means to turn or return actually. It means to return to God's right way of doing things. Clearly there is a definite point in time when someone begins to turn to God. But it is also a process and not just a one time event.
There is another Hebrew word , nacham. It means to sorrow.
We are all capable of human sorrow. Godly sorrow , though is imparted by The Holy Spirit. This person needs to pray that God will give him godly sorrow for his sin and not merely human sorrow. To ask and receive this is a matter of faith. We can't work our way up to it no matter how long we try. It is given by God.
Even Teshuvah is a walk of faith and not of striving. Who can actually walk in his paths of righteousness except that the Holy Spirit empowers and guides ?
In these situations like the one you described , we pray like the man in the Bible who prayed " Lord , I believe , help thou my unbelief ." In other words , I want to believe , help me Lord.
I would counsel him to keep his heart humble and stay in a place of faith. The scripture says that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him and also that God does not turn away a broken and contrite heart.
But to answer your main question. The stakes are very high. Not everyone makes it to heaven. We all need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. But don't miss the point that I made about it requiring faith. Without faith , we cannot even repent properly. Because human repentance is not enough. We need to ask God to change our hearts and give us a new heart. One of the keys is coming to the end of our self effort and asking God to work repentance in us. There is a big difference between a work of faith and a work of the flesh.
The preaching of repentance only reveals the problem. Once we discover that we cannot even repent properly on our own , then we realize that we need Him to empower us to repent properly. That is the place of humility. What Andrew Murray wrote about in his book absolute surrender.
Those who believe that their human sorrow is enough are deceived. God must work in us a godly repentance. That is why Jesus said that he came for the sick and not for the righteous. Those who know that they are sinful and cannot even repent properly learn to despise their own hard heart and ask God for a new one. A soft heart that responds to God.
We all fight this battle. Some are just more honest with themselves and others about it. The difference comes with how we respond to finding out that we are hopeless to change ourselves. One path has us die to our self and be raised in Christ. It then becomes no longer I that liveth but Christ liveth in me. The other path seeks to justify self and the flesh.
The rooted and grounded in love part is very important.
I would counsel him to not give up. There are actually two words in Hebrew for repentance. Maybe more , but at least two main ones that I am aware of. One is teshuvah which was mentioned already. Which means to turn or return actually. It means to return to God's right way of doing things. Clearly there is a definite point in time when someone begins to turn to God. But it is also a process and not just a one time event.
There is another Hebrew word , nacham. It means to sorrow.
We are all capable of human sorrow. Godly sorrow , though is imparted by The Holy Spirit. This person needs to pray that God will give him godly sorrow for his sin and not merely human sorrow. To ask and receive this is a matter of faith. We can't work our way up to it no matter how long we try. It is given by God.
Even Teshuvah is a walk of faith and not of striving. Who can actually walk in his paths of righteousness except that the Holy Spirit empowers and guides ?
In these situations like the one you described , we pray like the man in the Bible who prayed " Lord , I believe , help thou my unbelief ." In other words , I want to believe , help me Lord.
I would counsel him to keep his heart humble and stay in a place of faith. The scripture says that God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him and also that God does not turn away a broken and contrite heart.
But to answer your main question. The stakes are very high. Not everyone makes it to heaven. We all need to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. But don't miss the point that I made about it requiring faith. Without faith , we cannot even repent properly. Because human repentance is not enough. We need to ask God to change our hearts and give us a new heart. One of the keys is coming to the end of our self effort and asking God to work repentance in us. There is a big difference between a work of faith and a work of the flesh.
The preaching of repentance only reveals the problem. Once we discover that we cannot even repent properly on our own , then we realize that we need Him to empower us to repent properly. That is the place of humility. What Andrew Murray wrote about in his book absolute surrender.
Those who believe that their human sorrow is enough are deceived. God must work in us a godly repentance. That is why Jesus said that he came for the sick and not for the righteous. Those who know that they are sinful and cannot even repent properly learn to despise their own hard heart and ask God for a new one. A soft heart that responds to God.
We all fight this battle. Some are just more honest with themselves and others about it. The difference comes with how we respond to finding out that we are hopeless to change ourselves. One path has us die to our self and be raised in Christ. It then becomes no longer I that liveth but Christ liveth in me. The other path seeks to justify self and the flesh.
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