Gun Control

RDKirk · Aug 15, 2021

Paradox.79 said:
Pepper Spray, taking self defense classes,

If those were actually reliable, police would not have guns.

you know it was not enough to pass a background when you bought a gun from my gramps. He made sure you new how to use it and to keep out of your kids hands and if you refuse to be trained he would not sell. That is what most of us want. Mandatory training and background checks. You see that is the thing that the guns do not want to accept...guns are not just a right...THERE A RESPONSIBLITY!!! Also quite a few of those times when a citizen defended themselves with a gun they ended shooting innocent, that is because...YOU NEED TRAINING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your not allowed to drive a car with training and a license, and do not try and say a several thousand pound metal box filled with explosive liquid and can move at speeds of 60 mph or more is not weapon. ONLY LICENCED SELLERS, MANDATORY BACKGROUND CHECKS, PROPER TRAINING. Most gun related injury's are from ignorance...like hte 7 year old who blew his sisters head of...google it. He did not know what he was doing and feel for the child cause he is gonna have a difficult life. It should not have happened...the parent did not practice proper gun safety. The parents should be in jail. Proper training and gun saftey classes is not to much to ask.

I'd be fine with all that as long as they were not contrived to actually prevent people from owning guns for practicable self defense. That is a situation similar to the voter ID situation, where states require a voter ID and then make it difficult for people in certain counties to get voter IDs.

Gun owners already know what happens when states set up licensing regimes under "may issue" rules that leave it to the sole discretion of officials to decide on their own whim whether to issue a license even after the applicant has leaped through all the hoops. "May issue" means it doesn't happen unless the applicant has political pull.

Silverback · Aug 15, 2021

Paradox.79 said:
Thats the thing there not trained...people are buying guns with know training. Most shooting are accidental and there normally there child getting there hands on the gun. These idiots and they are idiots did not bother learning proper gun etiquette. It was not enough to pass a background when you bought a gun from my gramps. He made sure you were new how to use it and to keep out of your kids hands and if you refuse he would not sell. That is what most of us want. Mandatory training and background checks. You see that is the thing that the guns do not want to accept...guns are not just a right...there a responsibility.

Don't forget a gun safe for safe storage.

The Barbarian · Aug 15, 2021

Paradox.79 said:
Thats the thing there not trained...people are buying guns with know training. Most shooting are accidental and there normally there child getting there hands on the gun. These idiots and they are idiots did not bother learning proper gun etiquette. It was not enough to pass a background when you bought a gun from my gramps. He made sure you were new how to use it and to keep out of your kids hands and if you refuse he would not sell. That is what most of us want. Mandatory training and background checks. You see that is the thing that the guns do not want to accept...guns are not just a right...there a responsibility.

There's a lot of common sense in what you say here. But common sense isn't as common as it should be.

The Barbarian · Aug 15, 2021

RDKirk said:
Gun owners already know what happens when states set up licensing regimes under "may issue" rules that leave it to the sole discretion of officials to decide on their own whim whether to issue a license even after the applicant has leaped through all the hoops. "May issue" means it doesn't happen unless the applicant has political pull.

This is a problem. A Constitutional right should never be at the whim of a public servant. My thought is that if a person is not competent or trustworthy enough to have a firearm, then it should be up to a court to make that determination, not your local police chief or sheriff.

miamited · Aug 15, 2021

Paradox.79 said:
This is and edited episode clip from Designated Survivor addressing common sense gun control. The story has happened more than once. Unlicensed gun sellers do not have to do a background check, a criminal or nut job buys a gun and kills someone. I think this video address the issue.

Hi paradox,

Actually, quite a lot of firearem deaths are by people who are not, prior to their killing someone, felony criminals or nut jobs.

God bless,
Ted

classical5 · Aug 15, 2021

Paradox.79 said:
Thats the thing there not trained...people are buying guns with know training. Most shooting are accidental and there normally there child getting there hands on the gun. These idiots and they are idiots did not bother learning proper gun etiquette. It was not enough to pass a background when you bought a gun from my gramps. He made sure you were new how to use it and to keep out of your kids hands and if you refuse he would not sell. That is what most of us want. Mandatory training and background checks. You see that is the thing that the guns do not want to accept...guns are not just a right...there a responsibility.

No, most shooting deaths are not accidental. From CDC WISQARS database, there were 498 accidental firearm deaths in 2019 (most recent data). That’s a statistical anomaly in a nation of over 300 million people with over 40% owning a gun.

Americans do quite well without govt mandatory training and licensing.

Mandatory training has been done before for the same reasons you list. They were called safety permits or firearm purchase permits. They were simply fig leafs for a de facto gun ban.

The permits were so hard and expansive and burdensome that most people would not or could not get them.

That was the reason for Heller 2.

The Barbarian · Aug 15, 2021

There is this:

Surprisingly, suicide is the major cause of gun deaths.

Paradox.79 · Aug 15, 2021

miamited said:
Hi paradox,

Actually, quite a lot of firearem deaths are by people who are not, prior to their killing someone, felony criminals or nut jobs.

God bless,
Ted

Most are accidental, parent did not keep a eye on the kids or weapon, 7/8 yr old gets mad at sister and with know real concept of life and death he killed his sister. It is mandatory to be trained and pass a test before you can drive. I do not think it is to much to ask the same for guns

Paradox.79 · Aug 15, 2021

classical5 said:
No, most shooting deaths are not accidental. From CDC WISQARS database, there were 498 accidental firearm deaths in 2019 (most recent data). That’s a statistical anomaly in a nation of over 300 million people with over 40% owning a gun.

Americans do quite well without govt mandatory training and licensing.

Mandatory training has been done before for the same reasons you list. They were called safety permits or firearm purchase permits. They were simply fig leafs for a de facto gun ban.

The permits were so hard and expansive and burdensome that most people would not or could not get them.

That was the reason for Heller 2.

Dude my grandfather was a Vietnam vet and retired Marine who ran a hunting and fishing store. He was very strong on the right to be armed. He was also aware that a gun was not just a right it was responsibility. That is the problem with you gun people...you think the right should come before responsibility. There never gonna ban guns....they never have...what your talking about is conspiracy theorist paranoia . It would be impossible to take the guns...and there are plenty of countries you can own a gun. It is not 1792 anymore...there are no wild animals, native Americans attack settlers. Every mass shootist out there had some mental illness. The Florida school shooter they want to kill is mentally ill. They state new is when he was kid they did not want to waist there money on poor people as usual. He was able to by his gun...and he had been marked mentally unstable. I own a gun. I can to get to it easy my kids could not. I'm licensed, My grandfather trained me and if I was in a mass shooting situation I would be one of the few armed civilians who would some training on how to deal with it. Instead we get people who think there wyatt earp and a shooting happens and they pull out there gun...miss the bad guy and kill a child.

classical5 · Aug 15, 2021

Paradox.79 said:
Dude my grandfather was a Vietnam vet and retired Marine who ran a hunting and fishing store. He was very strong on the right to be armed. He was also aware that a gun was not just a right it was responsibility. That is the problem with you gun people...you think the right should come before responsibility. There never gonna ban guns....they never have...what your talking about is conspiracy theorist paranoia . It would be impossible to take the guns...and there are plenty of countries you can own a gun. It is not 1792 anymore...there are no wild animals, native Americans attack settlers. Every mass shootist out there had some mental illness. The Florida school shooter they want to kill is mentally ill. They state new is when he was kid they did not want to waist there money on poor people as usual. He was able to by his gun...and he had been marked mentally unstable. I own a gun. I can to get to it easy my kids could not. I'm licensed, My grandfather trained me and if I was in a mass shooting situation I would be one of the few armed civilians who would some training on how to deal with it. Instead we get people who think there wyatt earp and a shooting happens and they pull out there gun...miss the bad guy and kill a child.

All false.

The democrats desperately want to ban guns. Look up Diane Feinstein, look up Beto “hell yes we’re going to take your AR-15” O’roarke, look up the various gun control legislation currently in congress. Ever since Handgun Control Inc. openly demanded a ban on all handguns in the 1970’s they wanted guns banned.

Read the Federalist Papers, they refer to private ownership of arms 27 times - and never in terms of hunting or recreation, always in terms of defending the nation against foreign powers and an overreaching govt.

I am aware of no case in which a mass shooter was confronted by an armed person and the armed citizen missed and shot a kid ( or anyone). There are cases of cops shooting bystanders.

Your grandfather sounds like a good guy. You sound like a person caught up in emotion. Stick to the facts.

miamited · Aug 16, 2021

Paradox.79 said:
Most are accidental, parent did not keep a eye on the kids or weapon, 7/8 yr old gets mad at sister and with know real concept of life and death he killed his sister. It is mandatory to be trained and pass a test before you can drive. I do not think it is to much to ask the same for guns

Hi paradox,

Listen, you're free to believe whatever seems to be the truth to you. I will just put out there that the deaths by firearms caused by a child getting hold of an improperly stored firearm is really just a very, very small fraction of firearm's deaths. I did find this:

Nearly 40% of all unintentional shooting deaths among children 11-14 years of age occur in the home of a friend.

That statistic comes from Nationwidechildrens.org.

It doesn't give any number that we can work with as far as the question we are discussing here. But it's very sad that adults just don't really understand the danger that they bring into a home with children, when a firearm is brought into the home. However, the answer to our question comes from Everytownsearch.org:

In 2020 there were at least 369 unintentional shootings by children, resulting in 142 deaths and 242 injuries nationally.

I'd like you to read that statement carefully several times over. In 2020 we had 142 deaths by firearm where the shooter was a child. Now, I don't know how you define 'most', but the total number of deaths by firearm in the U.S. in 2020, according to Gunviolencearchive.org, was 19,411. That's a count of all deaths from firearms, excluding suicide. What the people at gunviolencearchive.org refer to as willful, malicious, and accidental deaths by firearms. I'm at a loss to see how 142 deaths could possibly be considered 'most' regarding this issue, when stacked up against 19,411 total non-suicide deaths from firearms.

Any chance you might share your evidence to support your claim?

God bless,
Ted

Silverback · Aug 16, 2021

miamited said:
Hi paradox,

Listen, you're free to believe whatever seems to be the truth to you. I will just put out there that the deaths by firearms caused by a child getting hold of an improperly stored firearm is really just a very, very small fraction of firearm's deaths. I did find this:

Nearly 40% of all unintentional shooting deaths among children 11-14 years of age occur in the home of a friend.

That statistic comes from Nationwidechildrens.org.

It doesn't give any number that we can work with as far as the question we are discussing here. But it's very sad that adults just don't really understand the danger that they bring into a home with children, when a firearm is brought into the home. However, the answer to our question comes from Everytownsearch.org:

In 2020 there were at least 369 unintentional shootings by children, resulting in 142 deaths and 242 injuries nationally.

I'd like you to read that statement carefully several times over. In 2020 we had 142 deaths by firearm where the shooter was a child. Now, I don't know how you define 'most', but the total number of deaths by firearm in the U.S. in 2020, according to Gunviolencearchive.org, was 19,411. That's a count of all deaths from firearms, excluding suicide. What the people at gunviolencearchive.org refer to as willful, malicious, and accidental deaths by firearms. I'm at a loss to see how 142 deaths could possibly be considered 'most' regarding this issue, when stacked up against 19,411 total non-suicide deaths from firearms.

Any chance you might share your evidence to support your claim?

God bless,
Ted

The gun either needs to be on you, or in a safe, I know people who take their side arm out of the safe at night and set it on the nightstand, then they forget about it come morning, and go to work while the gun is still sitting on the night stand...recipe for disaster, especially if minors live in or visit your home.

Sleep in a shoulder holster if you have too.

FIREARMS NEED TO BE ON YOUR PERSON, OR IN THE SAFE...just say'n

Paradox.79 · Aug 17, 2021

miamited said:
Hi paradox,

Listen, you're free to believe whatever seems to be the truth to you. I will just put out there that the deaths by firearms caused by a child getting hold of an improperly stored firearm is really just a very, very small fraction of firearm's deaths. I did find this:

Nearly 40% of all unintentional shooting deaths among children 11-14 years of age occur in the home of a friend.

That statistic comes from Nationwidechildrens.org.

It doesn't give any number that we can work with as far as the question we are discussing here. But it's very sad that adults just don't really understand the danger that they bring into a home with children, when a firearm is brought into the home. However, the answer to our question comes from Everytownsearch.org:

In 2020 there were at least 369 unintentional shootings by children, resulting in 142 deaths and 242 injuries nationally.

I'd like you to read that statement carefully several times over. In 2020 we had 142 deaths by firearm where the shooter was a child. Now, I don't know how you define 'most', but the total number of deaths by firearm in the U.S. in 2020, according to Gunviolencearchive.org, was 19,411. That's a count of all deaths from firearms, excluding suicide. What the people at gunviolencearchive.org refer to as willful, malicious, and accidental deaths by firearms. I'm at a loss to see how 142 deaths could possibly be considered 'most' regarding this issue, when stacked up against 19,411 total non-suicide deaths from firearms.

Any chance you might share your evidence to support your claim?

God bless,
Ted

Ted maybe my numbers are off. Statistics regularly change. It does not negate the fact that gun use and safety training would reduce gun deaths. That is because other countries have done it. You do not have to ban guns...I am not worried about a criminal with a gun. A criminal as a rule does not do mass shootings, mentally unstable people do. While keep guns out of criminals hands is difficult it is not difficult to keep guns of mentally unstable peoples hands. Maybe its because places like Japan and Australia are small that gun control works...but it works...it does not work here because the majority of this country can agree on anything...this is one of the most selfish, arrogant, countries on the planet

The Barbarian · Aug 17, 2021

Paradox.79 said:
Ted maybe my numbers are off. Statistics regularly change. It does not negate the fact that gun use and safety training would reduce gun deaths.

This is the winner today. It's such a simple and obvious truth. But for some reason, it's not getting through to some people.

Vanellus · Aug 17, 2021

I read in a European newspaper that gun deaths have risen (against a historic downward trend) in a period that correlates well with the Covid pandemic. Is this true?

miamited · Aug 17, 2021

Hi paradox,

Paradox.79 said:
Ted maybe my numbers are off.

Off? You've never actually given any numbers. You've merely made the statement that firearms in the hands of children is the biggest problem with firearm's deaths:

Paradox.79 said:
Most are accidental, parent did not keep a eye on the kids or weapon, 7/8 yr old gets mad at sister and with know real concept of life and death he killed his sister.

I've asked for you to support that claim with facts and now you come with hat in hand groveling that 'maybe my numbers are off'. After I posted the facts of the matter, your term 'off' doesn't even begin to show how far wrong you are.

Now I'll ask you for some more supporting data. What countries improved their firearm's deaths by training owners?

Paradox.79 said:
.it does not work here because the majority of this country can agree on anything...this is one of the most selfish, arrogant, countries on the planet

Now that's something I can wholeheartedly agree on with you and I won't push you to support that with evidence because I, too, see it every day. BTW whatever works in Japan and Australia will work here, if we just had the desire to make the necessary changes and enforce them.

God bless,
Ted

BNR32FAN · Aug 17, 2021

Silverback said:
If the law is changed requiring background checks for "ALL" firearm purchases, public and private, it will have no affect. Criminals don't follow the law...that's why there criminals

Yeah if criminals would stop breaking the law I wouldn’t need a gun to begin with.

BNR32FAN · Aug 17, 2021

iluvatar5150 said:
The claim that it'll have "no effect" is silly. (whether it'll have a big effect is another matter) Combined with universal registration, universal background checks would provide a chain of custody for a weapon that could be used to prosecute a seller who didn't perform the proper checks before transferring the weapon. Some of these improper transfers occur because the current system affords the buy some measure of secrecy and the seller a measure of plausible deniability.

Good point. I like it, it brings a level of accountability to the table.

BNR32FAN · Aug 17, 2021

Paradox.79 said:
I have know problem with someone owning a gun. As long as the person who sells it to them is licensed to sell guns, the person is trained properly in the use of it and proper care of it, and a background check. And finally your responsible for it. That means you make sure your kids can not get there hands on it. If your child is having a mental breakdown steals the gun and shoots up their school you are responsible. Another problem today is parents are not aware of there kids mental wellness. My mom was, my mom worked alot but she regularly sat down with here kids and talked with us. She talked to teachers and neighbors. I was going through a very dark time when I was a teenager my mom noticed and got me help.

Yep I completely agree, anyone who owns a gun should keep it locked up or face the consequences if it’s used inappropriately, provided that someone didn’t break into their safe to acquire it.

Paradox.79 · Aug 18, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Yeah if criminals would stop breaking the law I wouldn’t need a gun to begin with.

First of Criminals do not do mass shootings. Criminals are in business of making money killing children is bad business. It is the mentally unstable people who more often than not get guns legally. The school shooter in Florida was flagged as mentally unstable as a minor, the good state of Florida did not want to waist money on a poor person. The mentally unstable person went and legally bought a gun and killed school children. Here look as screenshot it pretty much sums up the problem

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