Grrrrrr!!!!

[Croooz]

So I was hood winked into going to our men's bible study. I had decided not to bother because they are at the point of just reading a scripture and then explaining it. The emphasis is on the scriptures which speak to a certain member at that time. It's not bad but I just don't feel I've learned anything and there is THAT ONE brother who basically just wants to hear himself talk and applies all manner....anyway I'm sure you've got the same guy/gal in your group...

Anywho, to my surprise they are studying Romans. I felt encouraged because I've been reading and listening to it for a few weeks now. Lo and behold they are on Ch 8 starting at v 18....not far to go for 29-30 and predestination.

V 28 was naturally a big hit and as I'm on the edge of my seat in anticipation.....29-30 come and go and the emphasis was now on G-d's everlasting love.... I began to pray because I didn't want these scriptures to just be bypassed so casually.

Brother "Like the sound of his voice" opened the door by making some comment about we decide whether or not to follow G-d's purpose or something along those lines....still I waited and prayed....then 1 deacon paraphrased vs 29-30 and still glossed over "foreknew...predestined". ENOUGH was ENOUGH!

"Excuse me guys...but I see we continue to just gloss over a few key words in these verses which are pretty crucial." I then went on to speak on the "foreknew" being more than foreknowledge but fore love and whatever else I remember from the "Amazing Grace" DVD and the footnotes of my Reformed ESV study bible....

It went fine till I shut up....at this point Brother "LTSOHV" began to interpret or....not really sure what he was doing but in the end it sounded like we agreed but then like we didn't. I began to reel the conversation back to the 2 verses but it was off on "choice" "predestined for a time?" and a host of other "sounds good" garbage. To add insult to injury after my brother and I had actually begun to make some headway here came arch enemy #1....
An Armin-e-end study bible which had footnotes about predestination and how some believe this but that isn't truly what the verses are talking about. Well, since it's in the bible it must be right... I was biting at the bits to read from the Reformed study bible but after Deacon #2 finished reading that the other guys were now okay.

I'm now praying for what it is I should do. I could better spend my time at home studying. I have tons of free time now....we got rid of cable and are making plans to sell the TV as well. So I have hours and hours of time.

Anyhow the point of this was the level of frustration at how entrenched these lies of deception are. I, only a week or so ago, took offense to Calvinism=Biblical theology and now am beginning to see it is true. I just could not believe how quickly a footnote "helped" explain away predestination. Now I have been accused of being too analytical, academic,....however the "keep it simple" philosophy seems to be a bit too simple minded for me at times. If I were to keep to this philosophy I would never have bothered looking into why it I believe what it is I'd been taught.

I could go on forever so I'll end it here. Thanks for reading and please offer some suggestions on what to do.

 

[ClementofRome]

...ahhh. What I refer to as postmodern Bible study. We simply sit in a circle and ask one another, "well, Bob, what does this text mean to YOU." Little indepth study by either the leader or the participants.

Bless you for trying. I say get back in there and fight the good fight!

 

[oworm]

Now I have been accused of being too analytical, academic,....

You have just experienced what i call the "mushroom cultivation bible study style"

Keep them in the dark and feed them on manure

 

[Croooz]

You have just experienced what i call the "mushroom cultivation bible study style"

Keep them in the dark and feed them on manure

 

[Croooz]

Bless you for trying. I say get back in there and fight the good fight!

Nah... :o I'll pray G-d send another.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I do feel that they need to define what their authoritative foundation is, though.

Sola Scriptura
We reaffirm the inerrant Scripture to be the sole source of written divine revelation,which alone can bind the conscience. The Bible alone teaches all that is necessary for our salvation from sin and is the standard by which all Christian behavior must be measured.


We deny that any creed, council or individual may bind a Christian’s conscience, that the Holy Spirit speaks independently of or contrary to what is set forth in the Bible, or that personal spiritual experience can ever be a vehicle of revelation.

 

[ruby_redeemed]

That's how it goes at our church, just over look anything that takes away our free will and hopefully no one will notice. I think that's why I never realized how clear the Bible is on Calvinism.

 

[frumanchu]

...ahhh. What I refer to as postmodern Bible study. We simply sit in a circle and ask one another, "well, Bob, what does this text mean to YOU."

I refer to it as Diaprax Bible Study (thanks to Calvinist_Dark_Lord who dropped that term into my vocabulary )

Croooz, my recommendation to you is to study well and pray hard. Pick your battles. You will make a much better case for the Reformed position by being calm, thorough and rational than by being agitated, disorganized and emotional. Take a humble but confident approach and be patient.

 

[ruby_redeemed]

I was in a Sunday school class, I don't remember what the topic was about, but the teacher asked what we thought about Predestination. A lady in the class responded with
"that's a non word"! I go to a Presbyterian church!

 

[Jon_]

I, only a week or so ago, took offense to Calvinism=Biblical theology and now am beginning to see it is true.

Welcome to the Truth, brother!

Praise God from whom all blessings flow,
Praise him all creatures here below,
Praise him all ye heavenly host,
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Amen.

Praise God you have been revealed the truth. If the whole revelation of God's grace is granted unto you as it was me, it will be a gradual process. I cannot encourage you enough to pick up a copy of R.C. Sproul's Chosen By God. After that, I would encourage you to read his Grace Unknown. These two books will provide excellent introductions into Reformed Theology.

From there, I recommend going to the great original works of Reformed Theology:

The Westminster Confession of Faith (with Shorter and Larger Catechism)
The Belgic Confession
The Heidelberg Catechism
The Canons of Dort

These should really help you get a deep, scriptural understanding of the doctrine of grace. Use these to guide your study in the Word. They are not, of course, a substitute for the Word, but a supplement (or a guide) to your study of it. Use these works to guide you to the relevant Scriptures, but allow the Holy Spirit to prove your mind.

Believe me, there is so much to know. It may seem overwhelming at first, but at the same time, that is what is exciting about it. There is so much to know that even one's man's life, a hundred men's lives, an eternity of men's lives, would not be enough to learn it all. God's Wisdom is a foundation that wells up and quenches the thirst unfailingly. We can never deplete the reservoir of his Wisdom. But neither is the calling to know his purposes for our lives unattainable. He has given us his Word and called us to study and learn it, for within are the instructions of Christian living: Christian existence.

 

[Croooz]

Jon,
Good call on the book list. I found a book list at monergism. com and was looking for what others recommended. Now I don't have to post a thread asking for it.

Westminster Confession of Faith contains the Shorter Catechism, Larger Catechism, and Confession (with Scripture proofs), plus several other useful documents like The Sum of Saving Knowledge and The Directory for the Public Worship of God.

I guess this will fulfill the first requirement....I do have tons of time now that there is no TV. I hope to get to speed in a couple of months. This means that I will at least understand what it is I've been reading about here.

An FYI, I've been approved to attend Reformed Theological Seminary by my Pastor. The approval is for the Church Partnership Program they offer which my Pastor has agreed to....now I have to get accepted at the Seminary. So I guess I'm Reforming as I type.

 

[Jon_]

So I guess I'm Reforming as I type.

Semper Reformada (always reforming) you might say!

Congrats on the sponsorship for Reformed Theological. I am righteously jealous for you! I hope to be able to attend a fine, Reformed seminary sometime in my life, whether or not my career requires it.

 

[Croooz]

Feel free to pay my third if you'd like... I'll be taking the Master of Arts in Religion and we'll see. It's a 60 credit program. My Pastor was thoroudhly impressed with the program and highly recommended it. He's thinking about beginning his PhD with RTS. They have 4 courses in Systemic Theology which is more than what my Pastor took for his M.Div along with the 2 other M.Div's in the church. I can't tell who's more excited about starting seminary: my wife, my Pastor, or me. Of course we'll see after I pay for tuition.

 

[constance]

I am having a really hard time with Predestination. I have been leaning toward an armenian interpretation, and I'm not sure that's right either.

I'm mad at Luther, mad at Calvin, even kinda mad at Zwingli. I'm actually rather pleased with Cotton Mather this week - if only I could find a nice Puritan congregation to worship with.

My big problem is that I'm the token "Calvinist" in my circle of friends/family - I inherited it from my father, who converted to Baptist to make my mother happy when they married...my husband is a minister (mainstream protestant)...and I don't "get" their doctrine either.

*sigh*

Constance

 

[Croooz]

Constance,
There are some books on the subject which range from easy read to exhaustive. I would make the decision to immerse yourself completely in the subject after a a few months of prayer, Bible study and supplemental reading from these books then decide. My apologies if this is what you are doing and I'm merely stating the obvious.

Jon,
I have 3 books to buy tomorrow. The 2 by Sproul and "Reformed Confessions Harmonized" which has all the confessions you listed and more. I figure these 3 books should get me thru a week. We'll see...I'm a quick study and fast reader with good retention but tend to be all over the place in my selections. I'm working hard on a list and sticking to the list. Right now it's basically a "What is what I believe". I'll start off with the basic and then after I have the major ideas cemented down, then I'll begin to break each of the solas down. I figure I should have everything covered in 75-80 years. My goal is now to read 10,000 books and haven't decided on a number of times to have read the Bible. Yeah, I know...but I need structure and goals and crazy as that number sounds it'll be time well spent.

Pray for me as I embark on what I believe is G-d's purpose for my life...to Reform.

 

[Jon_]

Jon,
I have 3 books to buy tomorrow. The 2 by Sproul and "Reformed Confessions Harmonized" which has all the confessions you listed and more. I figure these 3 books should get me thru a week. We'll see...I'm a quick study and fast reader with good retention but tend to be all over the place in my selections. I'm working hard on a list and sticking to the list. Right now it's basically a "What is what I believe". I'll start off with the basic and then after I have the major ideas cemented down, then I'll begin to break each of the solas down. I figure I should have everything covered in 75-80 years. My goal is now to read 10,000 books and haven't decided on a number of times to have read the Bible. Yeah, I know...but I need structure and goals and crazy as that number sounds it'll be time well spent.

Pray for me as I embark on what I believe is G-d's purpose for my life...to Reform.

Great stuff! Sounds like you're on the right track to me! I will definitely keep you close in my heart and prayers. If you want, I just started up a Scripture discussion email chain and would be honored if you wanted to participate. I plan on making a post on it tomorrow. A lot of the other members are Arminians from the Nazarene church Bible study that I attend. It would be great to have a recently converted Arminian perspective to add to the discussion, not to mention a brother in the Reformed faith to back me up occasionally!

 

[Croooz]

If you want, I just started up a Scripture discussion email chain and would be honored if you wanted to participate. I plan on making a post on it tomorrow. A lot of the other members are Arminians from the Nazarene church Bible study that I attend. It would be great to have a recently converted Arminian perspective to add to the discussion, not to mention a brother in the Reformed faith to back me up occasionally!

Yes! Thanks for the invite. It'll give me a chance to practise some much needed restraint and civility. That darn Navy really messes ya up....at least that's the excuse I us. Send me an email or PM with what you need.

 

[BBAS 64]

Nah... :o I'll pray G-d send another.

Good Day, Croooz

I think if he wanted to send an other he would have done so.

I have tread your OP and know where you are comming from as I am in the same boat, you have gotten some good advise here. The " Sproul" books you are buying are great reads.

I will keep you in my prayers!!

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I'd also like to recommend "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace" by Michael Horton. I feel that this should be required reading for anyone who wants to see how the reformed view looks in practice and how it is completely relevant, and much more fulfilling than the "relevant" church.

Horton is the editor of Modern Reformation, a magizine I read and also is a primary contributer to the White Horse Inn, a weekly radio broadcast. You can listen to the most recent broadcast through a link on the MR website.

If you want another book that explains theology from a perspective of joy and fulfillment, I'd suggest "Desiring God" by John Piper. This is one that you may want to take more time on, and take notes. Once I understood the concept of Christian Hedonism, it really grabbed ahold of me. As Reformed Christians, we have every reason to rejoice, and the Bible commands that we do so many times over.

We all rejoice that you are coming into an understanding of the reformed views, but we rejoice all the more that you were in Christ first.

Just because some Arminian doesn't agree in the same doctrine, that doesn't mean we do not share fellowship with them. When I came to the conclusion that the Doctrines of Grace were more Biblical, I was very judgemental against them, and the Lord has worked heavilly on me for that. You may or may not experience this, but I want you to know that this became a huge hurdle that I placed before myself and would rather you not have to make as much a leap as I have.

All Christians were chosen by God, whether or not they realize that. Those who do find great comfort in that. Those who do not understand this can tend to be uncomfortable in their faith. It is our goal to help them in this through love and truth.

 

[constance]

Constance,
There are some books on the subject which range from easy read to exhaustive. I would make the decision to immerse yourself completely in the subject after a a few months of prayer, Bible study and supplemental reading from these books then decide. My apologies if this is what you are doing and I'm merely stating the obvious.

Hehe. My husband has a Master's in Theology and is almost done with his PhD in Church History. He's also a minister.

I get to read all his books, talk to all of his professors, and I got to help him study for his comp exams - so I'm sure I've got at least a BA in Church History!

I have been trying to understand Calvin since I was 16. I don't think another few months is going to help.

Now the Armenians...I think they get it...and the Anabaptists...

I think Cotton Mather (Puritan) put it well in his sermon "What must I do to be saved" - problem is, there are no more Puritans...

Constance