Great Tribulation: Past Or Future?

[Iosias]

Great Tribulation: Past Or Future?

 

[Dispy]

Future. What do you think?

 

[Iosias]

Future. What do you think?

I would lean to agreeing with Kenneth Gentry that it has past and was fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem in AD70.

I remain open

 

[Dispy]

I would lean to agreeing with Kenneth Gentry that it has past and was fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem in AD70.

I remain open

I think you would agree what ever other authors write. You rarely write something that is your original thought, and then rarely defend someone's work that you posted.

 

[Iosias]

You rarely write something that is your original thought

That is because we have a disagreement over a key issue. You champion originality and possess a solo scriptura approach whilst I recognise that there has been a succession of apostolic teaching which is to be found in the teachings of doctors of the Church and the creeds and confessions also. I am very suspicious of original thinking because if a thought is original, never taught before, then it cannot possibly be a part of "the faith once delivered to the saints." You may therefore believe that you score a point in saying this but in fact it makes me most cheerful

 

[Dispy]

That is because we have a disagreement over a key issue. You champion originality and possess a solo scriptura approach whilst I recognise that there has been a succession of apostolic teaching which is to be found in the teachings of doctors of the Church and the creeds and confessions also. I am very suspicious of original thinking because if a thought is original, never taught before, then it cannot possibly be a part of "the faith once delivered to the saints." You may therefore believe that you score a point in saying this but in fact it makes me most cheerful

Those teaching that you follow are by non-Divinely inspiried men. There thought are original thinking which you should also be suspicious of.

WILL YOU DEFEND THEIR TEACHINGS??? PLEASE GIVE ME A DIRECT ANSWER OF YES OR NO

 

[Iosias]

Those teaching that you follow are by non-Divinely inspiried men. There thought are original thinking which you should also be suspicious of.

1stly, Christ promised to give pastor-teachers to his Church. We ignore them at our peril.
2ndly, Partial-preterism is not "original thinking" but has an historical pedigree unlike dispensationalism.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I don't think partial preterism is very historic at all. Only in it's most mild form - that Christ predicted the destruction of Jerusalem. The rest is not historic no matter how it gets presented by modern preterists.


Justin Martyr 110-170 AD, Dialog with Trypho:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxxx.html
But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years22642264
We have translated the text of Justin as it stands. Commentators make the sense, “and that there will be a thousand years in Jerusalem,” or “that the saints will live a thousand years in Jerusalem.”
in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

Chapter LXXXI.-He Endeavours to Prove This Opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse.
"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: `For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days.(318) For the young man shall be an hundred years old;(319) but the sinner who dies an hundred years old,(320) he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound.(321) Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent [shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, saith the Lord.'(322) Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, `According to the days of the tree [of life(323) ] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, `The day of the Lord is as a thousand years, '(324) is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell(325) a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, `They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'(326)

Epistle of Barnabus, written about 131 A.D.
Chapter IV.-Antichrist is at Hand: Let Us Therefore Avoid Jewish Errors.
It therefore behoves us, who inquire much concerning events at hand,(25) to search diligently into those things which are able to save us. Let us then utterly flee from all the works of iniquity, lest these should take hold of us; and let us hate the error of the present time, that we may set our love on the world to come: let us not give loose reins to our soul, that it should have power to run with sinners and the wicked, lest we become like them. The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch(26) says, "For for this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance." And the prophet also speaks thus: "Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings.(27) In like manner Daniel says concerning the same, "And I beheld the fourth beast, wicked and powerful, and more savage than all the beasts of the earth, and how from it sprang up ten horns, and out of them a little budding horn, and how it subdued under one three of the great horns."(28) Ye ought therefore to understand.
From chapter viii
Because they shall see Him then in that day having a scarlet robe about his body down to his feet; and they shall say, Is not this He whom we once despised, and pierced, and mocked, and crucified? Truly this is(93) He who then declared Himself to be the Son of God. For how like is He to Him!(94) With a view to this, [He required] the goats to be of goodly aspect, and similar, that, when they see Him then coming, they may be amazed by the likeness of the goat. Behold, then,(95) the type of Jesus who was to suffer.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vii.xxvii.html
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, book V:
Chapter XXVI.-
1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings."228 It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them...


Chapter XXX

We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign.

4. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as "he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,"260 as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."261

Premillennialism is historic - not preterism.

 

[Dispy]

1stly, Christ promised to give pastor-teachers to his Church. We ignore them at our peril.
2ndly, Partial-preterism is not "original thinking" but has an historical pedigree unlike dispensationalism.

We still have pastor-teachers in the Chruch today.

NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION!!! WILL YOU DEFEND THEIR TEACHINGS??? PLEASE GIVE ME A DIRECT ANSWER OF YES OR NO???

WHY DO YOU START THREADS THAT YOU REFUSE TO DEFEND??? I DOUBT IF YOU WILL ANSWER THAT ALSO.

[

 

[Iosias]

We still have pastor-teachers in the Chruch today.

Correct but what they teach must be in accordance with what has been taught before. There needs be a doctrinal succession of apostolic doctrine:

2 Timothy 2:2 "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."

 

[Iosias]

Premillennialism is historic - not preterism.

You are correct that some in the Early Church held to premillennialism but two things needs be said:

1. It was not the only view for Justin Martyr writes in chapter 80 of his Dialogue with Trypho "I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." There was therefore disagreement in the Early Church over matters of eschatology.

2. It was certainly not dispensational:

Justin Martyr's title for two chapters are as follows:

Chap. CXIX. — Christians Are the Holy People Promised to Abraham. They Have Been Called Like Abraham.​

Chap. CXX. — Christians Were Promised to Isaac, Jacob, and Judah.

He then goes on to say

Chap. CXXIII. — Ridiculous Interpretations of the Jews. Christians Are the True Israel.​

"As, therefore, all these latter prophecies refer to Christ and the nations, you should believe that the former refer to Him and them in like manner. For the proselytes have no need of a covenant, if, since there is one and the same law imposed on all that are circumcised, the Scripture speaks about them thus: ‘And the stranger shall also be joined with them, and shall be joined to the house of Jacob;’ (Isa_14:1) and because the proselyte, who is circumcised that he may have access to the people, becomes like one of themselves,279 while we who have been deemed worthy to be called a people are yet Gentiles, because we have not been circumcised. Besides, it is ridiculous for you to imagine that the eyes of the proselytes are to be opened while your own are not, and that you be understood as blind and deaf while they are enlightened. And it will be still more ridiculous for you, if you say that the law has been given to the nations, but you have not known it. For you would have stood in awe of God’s wrath, and would not have been lawless, wandering sons; being much afraid of hearing God always say, ‘Children in whom is no faith. And who are blind, but my servants? and deaf, but they that rule over them? And the servants of God have been made blind. You see often, but have not observed; your ears have been opened, and you have not heard.’ (Deu_32:20; Isa_42:19) Is God’s commendation of you honourable? and is God’s testimony seemly for His servants? You are not ashamed though you often hear these words. You do not tremble at God’s threats, for you are a people foolish and hard-hearted. ‘Therefore, behold, I will proceed to remove this people,’ saith the Lord;’ and I will remove them, and destroy the wisdom of the wise, and hide the understanding of the prudent.’ (Isa_29:14) Deservedly too: for you are neither wise nor prudent, but crafty and unscrupulous; wise only to do evil, but utterly incompetent to know the hidden counsel of God, or the faithful covenant of the Lord, or to find out the everlasting paths. ‘Therefore, saith the Lord, I will raise up to Israel and to Judah the seed of men and the seed of beasts.’ (Jer_31:27) And by Isaiah He speaks thus concerning another Israel: ‘In that day shall there be a third Israel among the Assyrians and the Egyptians, blessed in the land which the Lord of Sabaoth hath blessed, saying, blessed shall my people in Egypt and in Assyria be, and Israel mine inheritance.’ (Isa_19:24) Since then God blesses this people, and calls them Israel, and declares them to be His inheritance, how is it that you repent not of the deception you practise on yourselves, as if you alone were the Israel, and of execrating the people whom God has blessed? For when He speaks to Jerusalem and its environs, He thus added: ‘And I will beget men upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall inherit you, and you shall be a possession for them; and you shall be no longer bereaved of them.’" (Eze_36:12)

"What, then?" says Trypho; "are you Israel? and speaks He such things of you?"

"If, indeed," I replied to him, "we had not entered into a lengthy280 discussion on these topics, I might have doubted whether you ask this question in ignorance; but since we have brought the matter to a conclusion by demonstration and with your assent, I do not believe that you are ignorant of what I have just said, or desire again mere contention, but that you are urging me to exhibit the same proof to these men." And in compliance with the assent expressed in his eyes, I continued: "Again in Isaiah, if you have ears to hear it, God, speaking of Christ in parable, calls Him Jacob and Israel. He speaks thus: ‘Jacob is my servant, I will uphold Him; Israel is mine elect, I will put my Spirit upon Him, and He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry, neither shall any one hear His voice in the street: a bruised reed He shall not break, and smoking flax He shall not quench; but He shall bring forth judgment to truth: He shall shine,281 and shall not be broken till He have set judgment on the earth. And in His name shall the Gentiles trust.’ (Isa_42:1-4) As therefore from the one man Jacob, who was surnamed Israel, all your nation has been called Jacob and Israel; so we from Christ, who begat us unto God, like Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Joseph, and David, are called and are the true sons of God, and keep the commandments of Christ."

As the Holy Ghost led the Church into all truth we find premillennialism being rejected and amillennialism being established as truth hence The Athanasian Creed is clearly amillennial as this article ably explains.

 

[Terral]

Hi AV and Dispy:

I have read the entire thread above this post and can hardly believe a professing Dispensationalist (AV) is even offering these Preterism interpretations on this Board! The errors here are almost too numerous to count and this discussion has just started. The first mistake is in opening the debate with no OP thesis, claims or conclusions. The second was to give us the tripe from Thomas Gentry Jr. as evidence for anything! Dispy is pointing out the third great mistake in that you paste this stuff to these threads with no intention of defending anything, which is why there is no OP thesis presented in the first place. I suppose we begin at the top:

AV >> Great Tribulation: Past Or Future?

The Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21, Rev. 7:14) is definitely a ‘future’ event, which Christ Himself connects directly to the ‘END of the age’ and ‘Your Coming.’ Matthew 24:3, 30+31. The arguments against a ‘past’ fulfillment of the Great Tribulation are almost too numerous to count also.

AV >> I would lean to agreeing with Kenneth Gentry that it has past and was fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. I remain open.

Then you are teaching “Full Preterism,” which is against the COC guidelines of this fine Board! How people get DUPED by this false dogma is difficult to understand. I am not quoting Dispy in this reply to save space and because he is right in calling you down on this Preterism nonsense.

AV >> 1stly, Christ promised to give pastor-teachers to his Church. We ignore them at our peril.
2ndly, Partial-preterism is not "original thinking" but has an historical pedigree unlike dispensationalism.

Partial-preterism? What a joke? You agree with the Preterist above “that it [Great Tribulation] has past and was fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem in AD70.” That is “Full Preterism” in case you are unaware and grounds for having you booted off this Board. Having an ‘historical pedigree’ means NOTHING. Those dead church fathers of yours have just as much right to be wrong as anyone here. Your testimony either agrees with God and His Word, OR it DOES NOT. Period! In this case you are a transgressor of the truth of Scripture. This world is filled to the brim with ‘servants of righteousness’ (2Cor. 11:15) serving their ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14), as the ‘mystery of iniquity’ (2Thes. 2:7) was at work even in Paul’s day! To haul out this Preterism using no Scripture is careless and even reckless at best. I cannot ‘quote >>’ you misinterpreting God’s Word, because you are basing you reasoning upon the foolishness of this crazy Preterist who fell down somewhere between Matthew 24:34 and 36. How do we know for certain that any form of Preterism is the foolish invention of men blinded by the ‘deluding influence’ (2Thes. 2:11) into believing “what is false?”

1. John includes the “Great Tribulation” in his Revelation prophecies (Rev. 7:14), which was written AFTER Jerusalem fell in 70AD. This fact alone blows all the Preterist conjecture right out of the water.

2. Scripture has Christ returning (Matt. 24:30-31) to battle the armies standing against Jerusalem (Zech. 14:2), when Jerusalem was leveled BY ROMANS and the Gentiles overcame the “chosen race” (1Peter 2:9). In short: Preterists have the wrong team winning the battle. :0)

3. Paul teaches that our mystery church returns with Christ in glory (Col. 3:1-4) and Scripture records just one glorious return (Matt. 24:30-31) very much connected to the END of the age. Matt. 24:3+.

4. Christ’s glorious return includes the judgment of the living (Matt. 25:31-33) and the dead (Rev. 20:11-15), which has obviously not taken place. How do we know? Zechariah sees exactly what happens:

“Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.” Zechariah 14:3-4.

Christ is fighting against THOSE NATIONS and not against His own people! That day includes the Mount of Olives itself splitting right down the middle and everyone can clearly see that has yet to happen.

5. Christ’s own Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24) prophecies have yet to be fulfilled:

"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.” Matthew 24:7.

Kingdom did not rise up against kingdom in 70 AD., as Rome was the superpower keeping everyone under her thumb. Israel had been occupied even in Christ’s day and remained under Roman rule for the entire time.

"This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matt. 24:14.

Remember Christ is answering the disciple’s question about ‘Your Coming’ AND the ‘End of the age.’ Matt. 24:3. We do not even preach the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ today and that gospel message could NOT have possibly gone to the WHOLE WORLD in just a few years. Since we are still living in this ‘evil age’ (Gal. 1:4) referenced by Paul, then obviously the END of the age could not have come 2000 years ago. :0)

6. Christ connects the ‘Great Tribulation’ to great cataclysmic events that rock the entire world.

"There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon THE WORLD; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” Luke 21:25-26.

“Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” Revelation 3:10.

That Great Tribulation coming upon the ‘whole world’ is prophesied right here in Revelation time and time again, until Christ returns in glory to destroy His enemies at the Battle Of Armageddon. Rev. 14, 16, 19+20. And yet, AV wants to have all of that fulfilled, BEFORE John even pens these events in this book of PROPHECY. Rev. 22:7, 10, 18+19. The Romans leveling Jerusalem was a ‘local’ event that did not affect the ‘whole world.’

7. Even if John’s prophecies in Revelation were written by 70 AD (and they were NOT), this information had no way of being delivered to the ‘whole world’ for anyone to even hear them; much less believe God at His Word.

8. Christ prophesies that Elijah must return first and restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11), which Peter prophesies again in Acts 3:19-21. None of that has even started to be fulfilled.

9. Christ connects the restoration of the kingdom to Israel directly to the ‘times and epochs’ in Acts 1:6+7. Paul connects the same ‘times and epochs’ to the 1000 years “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2), which also has yet to even begin. Since our gathering to the Lord takes place when the 1000 Years (2Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord” COMES (2Thes. 2:2) or BEGINS, then our presence here on the earth is more evidence that the “Lord’s Day” (Rev. 1:10 = Day of the Lord) has yet to even start. The ‘end of the age’ comes along 1000 years LATER and only after the 1000 years are complete.

10. Satan is prophesied to be chained (Rev. 20:2) to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. We know that because he is released only AFTER the 1000 years is complete (Rev. 20:7). And yet, Paul teaches us that Satan is the ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:3-4) and the ‘prince of the power of the air’ (Eph. 2:2) still working through his “deluding influence” (2Thes. 2:11) EVEN NOW! There is obviously not any 1000 year period passing between Christ’s prophecies in Matthew 24 and 70 AD. There is simply not enough ‘time’ for all of these “Day of the Lord” Prophecies to be fulfilled in that tiny little 40 year period (30AD – 70AD).

I could list a 100 reasons why Preterism is a bunch of BULLONY, but if that is necessary then you are not even paying attention. Preterism BLINDS people to the truth of God’s Word and MANY are being destroyed by the false teachings of that bogus denomination. If you want to see a bunch of blind Preterists running around like chickens with their heads cut off, then head over to TheologyWeb.com and knock yourself out. My old friend AV should think about signing up there. :0)

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Terral]

Hi AV:

This ‘church father’ NONSENSE needs to end right now! What is the matter with you? Since when do the words of these dead guys trump the truth of God’s Living Word? Hebrews 4:12?

AV >> You are correct that some in the Early Church held to premillennialism but two things needs be said:

1. It was not the only view for Justin Martyr writes in chapter 80 of his Dialogue with Trypho "I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." There was therefore disagreement in the Early Church over matters of eschatology.

Justin What? Are you serious? There are no books in my Bible written by Justin ANYBODY. Your denominational TRASH has no place in this debate at all. AV’s bogus Preterism interpretation is either taught in God’s Word, OR it is the invention of deluded men! You have been led astray by the writings of some dead guys, because you placed more importance on their dead works than upon the truth of Scripture. 2Timothy 3:16-17. Now these readers must suffer through your drivel over the interpretations of some dead church father who could not find his own backside using both hands on a clear sunny summer afternoon. Either back your statements up using Scripture (2Tim. 2:15) or have the common decency to remain silent and appear wise. Proverbs 17:28.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Iosias]

You agree with the Preterist above “that it [Great Tribulation] has past and was fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem in AD70.” That is “Full Preterism” in case you are unaware and grounds for having you booted off this Board.

Perhaps a study of partial-preterism would be helpful since you obviously do not understand what it is. The whole reason it is termed partial is to differentiate it from full or hyper preterism which is against CF rules.

 

[Iosias]

This ‘church father’ NONSENSE needs to end right now! What is the matter with you? Since when do the words of these dead guys trump the truth of God’s Living Word?

God's living word has been taught by men in ages past as Christ has given pastor-teachers to his Church to edify them. We therefore need to listen to them. Orthodox Christianity is an historic faith.

 

[Terral]

Hi AV:

AV >> Perhaps a study of partial-preterism would be helpful since you obviously do not understand what it is. The whole reason it is termed partial is to differentiate it from full or hyper preterism which is against CF rules.

Please stop condescending to me about Preterism, as I have debated too many times with those monsters to bear these insults. Full Preterism says ‘all’ prophecy has been fulfilled (Heh), and the partial-preterist zombies draw the lines wherever they please. Preterism means “past” from the Latin ‘praeter,’ as in Matthew 24, 25:31-46, Daniel and most of Revelation is already done. Heh . . . The full preterists call themselves ‘consistent,’ because in my view their entire theology is DEAD WRONG. :0) The partial preterists are only mostly wrong about everything.

There is no other denomination of ‘professing’ Christians that this bible thumper abhors more than those calling themselves Preterists. I would spend a year working with Dispys on every topic from Genesis to Revelation, but would not waste one minute on a preterist for any reason. My view is the whole lot should be sent over to TheologyWeb.com and today. A warning to everyone else: Visit there at your own risk! You can get an eye or two put out in a hurry. :0) Preterists are like the gay folks. What they do behind closed doors is of no concern to me, so long as there is no ‘in-your-face’ business going on. Start bringing that garbage out and chucking it around and my feathers get ruffled pretty darn quick. :0)

AV >> God's living word has been taught by men in ages past as Christ has given pastor-teachers to his Church to edify them. We therefore need to listen to them. Orthodox Christianity is an historic faith.

Bullony AV! What the . . .? All the words of men combined do not equal a single Word from God! There are sixty-six books of God’s Living Word, which are actually three witnesses of spirit (OT), water (Kingdom NT) and blood (Pauline Epistles) and the “three are into the One” (1Jn 5:8) in the image of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Scripture is laid out precisely like the Tabernacle Of Moses and the Temple with the two veils included to conceal God’s Hidden Wisdom:

The Temple is a triune living ‘man,’ just like the ‘man’ Christ Jesus (1Tim. 2:5 = F+S+HS) and Scripture follows the same ‘true tabernacle’ (Heb. 8:1+2) pattern denoting “Our Image” (Genesis 1:26). Your Bible is two testaments, but mine is “Living AND Active” (Heb. 4:12) as three living witnesses having a spirit, body and soul like a man. “Christ in you” (Col. 1:27) conforms to the same exact triune image, which Paul refers to as the “inner man” (Rom 7:22, 2Cor. 4:16, Eph. 3:16). Some among you make fun of my diagrams, but all of them come from the ‘mind of Christ’ (1Cor. 2:16) that is enlarging “in” me. I come to this fine Christian Board and to this room in search of those calling themselves “Dispys,” because many using that title have assisted me over the years with my growth in Christ. I would carry a thousand of my brother and sister Dispys a thousand miles on my back, before I would bend down to give a preterist the time of day. When anyone comes up professing to be a preterist of any kind, then do not walk away; RUN!

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Iosias]

Bullony AV! What the . . .? All the words of men combined do not equal a single Word from God!

1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Ephesians 4:11, 12 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

1 Timothy 3:15 "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

2 Timothy 2:2 "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also."

2 Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

Jude 1:3 "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

 

[FreeinChrist]

You are correct that some in the Early Church held to premillennialism but two things needs be said:

1. It was not the only view for Justin Martyr writes in chapter 80 of his Dialogue with Trypho "I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." There was therefore disagreement in the Early Church over matters of eschatology.

2. It was certainly not dispensational:

Regardless, it is the clearly stated view of the early church. Partial preterism wasn't there. What were the other views? Was it that Jerusalem would not be rebuilt? What was he writing that about?:

And Trypho to this replied, “I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?”

Then I answered, “I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly,22582258 that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware;22592259
but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you.22602260

For I choose to follow not men or men’s doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth],22612261
and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistæ, Meristæ,22622262
Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years22642264
in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

And Irenaeus, Eusebius, Jerome, Victorinus, etc. all wrote that Revelation was written during the time of Domitian. It isn't until 600s that anyone suggested it was written earlier. That blows Gentry's position out of the water.

 

[Notrash]

Chap. CXXIII. — Ridiculous Interpretations of the Jews. Christians Are the True Israel.​

As therefore from the one man Jacob, who was surnamed Israel, all your nation has been called Jacob and Israel; so we from Christ, who begat us unto God, like Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Joseph, and David, are called and are the true sons of God, and keep the commandments of Christ."

Good stuff


Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Compare John 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

What the Bible Says about The Great Trubulation.... Future or Fulfilled? William R. Kimball. is another book of similar subject.

If Dan 9's 70 weeks is allowed to be kept intact rather than cut up and postponed (the postponing wouldnt' be allowed anyhow due to Ezekiel 12:21ff) to allow for the church age and restoration of national Israel, then it's much easier to understand the great trib as being fulfilled.

However, just as Judeans (jews) were judged for crucifying christ and for killing the prophets from Abel to Zechariah, and I believe 70 AD signified a 'end' to the age of national Isreal, so also the tribulation of 70 AD could be a 'last type' of what will happen at the end of the worlds age.

In luke 21:20, jesus could be referring to Jerusalem in 70 AD with the armies surrounding Jerusalem. Those who were disciples and believed Jesus predictions would have understood to flee and save themselves while others who had rejected Christ as Messiah and who were still hoping for a earthly Messiah that they thought was predicted by Daniel would have remained in Jerusalem hoping God would save them due to their ethnicity. (thei unbelief and pride) In vs 26, he could be referring to the end of the world.

But the above book I mention does give good explainations how all the predicitons could fall within the 70 AD destruction.

NR.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

As the Holy Ghost led the Church into all truth we find premillennialism being rejected and amillennialism being established as truth hence The Athanasian Creed is clearly amillennial as this article ably explains.

This idea of the Church being led into "all truth" with amil eventually replacing premil goes against the idea of a doctrinal succession of apostolic doctrine.


LDG