Grape Juice Communions

filosofer · May 5, 2007

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So, we can change the "bread" into a wafer and that is okay? But grape juice invalidates the LS? Hmmm....

PS: I know both didn't write "invalidates", but the implication is that using grape juice is somehow less than the "real" thing.

In Christ's love,
filo
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seajoy · May 5, 2007

filosofer said:
So, we can change the "bread" into a wafer and that is okay? But grape juice invalidates the LS? Hmmm....

PS: I know both didn't write "invalidates", but the implication is that using grape juice is somehow less than the "real" thing.

In Christ's love,
filo

Filo, you are much more learned than I, but a wafer is still bread...correct? But grape juice is not wine.

I never claim to know everything.

You are right...I did not say invalidates, but I always like to err on the cautious side.

Thank you for your insight.

filosofer · May 5, 2007

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My concern is that we have to be sure what makes the Supper the Supper, and what invalidates it. We often use the phrase "Word (of promise) attached to the visible elements."

These are not as clear as we would like. Where is the line drawn? And why? And how can someone give/receive "grape juice" in the Lord's Supper, but somehow indicate that it is "the Lord's command that we would use only wine, and too bad for those who can't handle it".

So, was/is the person receiving the forgiveness of sins through the body and blood of Christ "in, with, and under" the elements, when it was grape juice?

In Christ's love,
filo
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filosofer · May 5, 2007

but a wafer is still bread...correct? But grape juice is not wine.

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In my experience, the wafer is not close to "bread". Grape juice is much closer to wine than the wafer is to bread.

But that is just me.

And what kind of wine? And what color? Most wines in the middle east seem more to be white rather than the grape-based that we use in the US.

In Christ's love,
filo
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seajoy · May 5, 2007

filosofer said:
My concern is that we have to be sure what makes the Supper the Supper, and what invalidates it. We often use the phrase "Word (of promise) attached to the visible elements."

These are not as clear as we would like. Where is the line drawn? And why? And how can someone give/receive "grape juice" in the Lord's Supper, but somehow indicate that it is "the Lord's command that we would use only wine, and too bad for those who can't handle it".

So, was/is the person receiving the forgiveness of sins through the body and blood of Christ "in, with, and under" the elements, when it was grape juice?

In Christ's love,
filo

You have kindly placed my back to the wall.

I must say yes to your last question. Forgive me for my lack of compassion.

filosofer · May 5, 2007

seajoy said:
You have kindly placed my back to the wall.

I must say yes to your last question. Forgive me for my lack of compassion.

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
No need for forgiveness. We are discussing issues that are not clearly articulated. We learn together as we walk together. Just for info: I have always used wine (good red wine), but sometimes ...

If I had all the answers I would be God, and then we really would be in BIG trouble.

In Christ's love,
filo
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seajoy · May 5, 2007

filosofer said:
No need for forgiveness. We are discussing issues that are not clearly articulated. We learn together as we walk together. Just for info: I have always used wine (good red wine), but sometimes ...

If I had all the answers I would be God, and then we really would be in BIG trouble.

In Christ's love,
filo

phoenixgw · May 5, 2007

The expression, "Drinking the Kool-Aid" originated from the last communion at Jonestown, home of the Jim Jones cult. Brethren (and sistren) were forced to drink Kool-Aid laced with cyanide at gunpoint.

I suggest to you that the poison was already consumed when followers gave their faith to this cult. The Kool-Aid was merely an element of this satanic ordinance.

What will you be drinking this communion?

filosofer · May 5, 2007

phoenixgw said:
The expression, "Drinking the Kool-Aid" originated from the last communion at Jonestown, home of the Jim Jones cult. Brethren (and sistren) were forced to drink Kool-Aid laced with cyanide at gunpoint.

I suggest to you that the poison was already consumed when followers gave their faith to this cult. The Kool-Aid was merely an element of this satanic ordinance.

What will you be drinking this communion?

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
And your point is?

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

seajoy · May 5, 2007

uhhh, wine

LilLamb219 · May 5, 2007

filosofer said:
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In my experience, the wafer is not close to "bread".
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How about unleavened bread? Is it close to that?

TCat · May 5, 2007

Help me understand, the wine or juice is just plain wine and juice until it is used in Communion. The bread or wafer is just that until God does His work and makes it so much more.

If that is correct then whether it is wine, grape juice, stale gross cracker or bread it is nothing until God changes it to His means of forgiveness.

Since it is God who does the work why should we get legalistic about it?

This is another topic altogether but if we are going to stick to form why do we sprinkle rather than immerse as Christ was. Again His Means which we are not following?

seajoy · May 5, 2007

TCat said:
If that is correct then whether it is wine, grape juice, stale gross cracker or bread it is nothing until God changes it to His means of forgiveness.

Since it is God who does the work why should we get legalistic about it?

It's not legalistic....we are just using what Christ used.

filosofer · May 5, 2007

LilLamb219 said:
How about unleavened bread? Is it close to that?

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
Well, the wafer we use (in all the churches where I have served as elder, then as pastor) is still not much like most unleavened bread that I have eaten.

In Christ's love,
filo
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filosofer · May 5, 2007

seajoy said:
It's not legalistic....we are just using what Christ used.

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But did he use refrigerated wine?

In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

TCat · May 5, 2007

I doubt Jesus gave His disciples stale communion waffers at the last supper.

seajoy · May 5, 2007

filosofer said:
But did he use refrigerated wine?

In Christ's love,
filo

TheCosmicGospel · May 5, 2007

filosofer said:
So, was/is the person receiving the forgiveness of sins through the body and blood of Christ "in, with, and under" the elements, when it was grape juice?

In Christ's love,
filo

filo,

Maybe you can address the AALC rubric which says that if the wine cannot be taken, then just give bread to the person? This would be rare, since intincture would handle most of thes special cases.

I think most objections raised against "why not grape juice" stem form the association that those churches that offer only grape juice do not believe in the power of the sacrament to forgive sins. The elements in the Lutheran church have always recognized the use of wine and bread over against any other. Just as we have always taught that those who partake do indeed receive forgiveness of sins. To whittle away any part with our understanding and sensitivity becomes an opportunity to whittle everything.

There's a clear line somewhere. Confessional Lutheranism clearly followed that line. Why the need now to try and re-draw it?

Peace,
Cos

TCat · May 5, 2007

Are there Lutheran churches that ONLY offer grape juice?
I guess the question is are those who, like my son or my alcoholic friends, that take the grape juice not forgiven?
And who decided that a wafer is a good enough subsitute for unleven bread? Does this effect the forgiveness of the sacrament?

DaRev · May 5, 2007

In Christ's institution of the Sacrament, He used the unleavened bread of the Passover and wine. We do in fect know it was wine and not plain grape juice since there was no way to preserve grape juice 2000 years ago. It took a Methodist minister named Welch to perfect that. The individual wafers used in communion are baked unleavened bread.

These are the elements Christ used. These are the elements we should use for the Sacrament. When we start questioning such things it leads to a slippery slope that eventually loses the whole purpose and meaning of the Sacrament. If we are free to go outside of Christ's institution, then why not beer and pretzels? We'd see more men in church then.
Or how about scones and cognac?

Grape Juice Communions

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