Grape Juice Communions

TheCosmicGospel · May 2, 2007

I enjoy receiving communion as the pastor. I got surprised one time by the new elder. He was kind of stumped and couldn't remember the blessing. So he said, "Have a nice day." For some reason, I treasure those moments.

Peace,
Cos

Zecryphon · May 2, 2007

seajoy said:
well, they are already taking grape juice in a separate cup....so those folks , at least, shouldn't mind.

"well, they are already taking grape juice in a separate cup....so those folks , at least, shouldn't mind. "

Yeah, it's usually the purists who get offended. The two churches I attended previously before becoming a Lutheran both used grape juice. The last church's reasoning was that they did it so as not to tempt the members of the congregation who may be recovering alcoholics. That seemed like a good reason to me.

dinkime · May 2, 2007

we use wine (although i think it tastes gross and would prefer grape juice -- it is still a drink made from the "fruit of the vine", does scripture actaully say wine??)

you may use individual cup or common cup

we use wafer which have the texture of styrofoam...

seajoy · May 2, 2007

dinkime said:
we use wine (although i think it tastes gross and would prefer grape juice -- it is still a drink made from the "fruit of the vine", does scripture actaully say wine??)
...

Are you really WELS? Grape juice didn't stay grape juice for very long in the heat of the middle east.

TheCosmicGospel · May 2, 2007

seajoy said:
Are you really WELS? Grape juice didn't stay grape juice for very long in the heat of the middle east.

So that's why they washed their feet. It wasn't fresh squeazed...but fresh stomped?????

Grape juice just kind of ruins that eschatological point that Jesus was fond of making. "New wine in old wineskins."

Jesus offered the best wine at that time at Cana. You think He would have offered less than the best of instituting the meal of His own body and blood? We must leave this silly idea that Jesus didn't use wine!

And for the alcoholics - bread only!

Peace,
Cos

DaRev · May 2, 2007

Once grapes are pressed into juice, it immediately begins to break down. Without some form of oreservation it would ferment and become alcohol in rather short order.

One thing to think about is when would the grape harvest have been? In the spring when the Passover was celebrated, or later in the year? How would grape juice have been preserved for that period of time without preservation and/or refrigeration? It wouldn't have. It needed to be fermented into wine to be kept.

WildStrawberry · May 2, 2007

DaRev said:
I've known people with medical conditions or even recovering alcoholics be able to receive the blood of Christ by other means including intincture.

This is what I did while on chemo. Just the THOUGHT of taking communion made me sick to my stomach...which really bothered me. So I talked to Pastor and he said that, if I was ill on Sunday and just couldn't make myself take communion, he would commune me later in the week privately when I felt better. Most of the time, I could commune on Sunday by intincting...although it surprised the jenkies out of most of the Elders! It worked very well since, really, the wafer has no flavor and therefore didn't bother me with "smell issues".

It does bother me when, for some unknown reason, grape juice gets into the common cup. (we have both in our congregation) I start to focus on the element rather than on the Grace that comes from the Lord's Supper. I find myself obsessing over it and have to force myself to stop.

Kae

BigNorsk · May 3, 2007

Grape juice doesn't bother me, it's still the fruit of the vine. Though it is true that almost certainly it was indeed fermented wine.

If you took wine that had been sitting in a wineskin for months and served that at Communion, I think intincture or just taking the bread would be a lot more popular.

One thing I don't like is the wafers of bread. The reason being that the unleavened bread was sweet as compared to the sourdough the Israelites normally had.

Exo 12:17 kjv
(17) And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.

The word translated unleavened bread is this from Strong's (I use it because it's easy to post as far as I can tell, it agrees with newer works)

H4682
מצּה
matstsâh
mats-tsaw'
From H4711 in the sense of greedily devouring for sweetness; properly sweetness; concretely sweet (that is, not soured or bittered with yeast); specifically an unfermented cake or loaf, or (elliptically) the festival of Passover (because no leaven was then used): - unleavened (bread, cake), without leaven.

I do not find the wafers to be sweet and if there was a big plate of them, I would not be tempted in the least to greedily devour them. This from a guy who can't stop eating a bag of chips until my bleeding fingers scrape through the bottom of the sack. A bag of Communion wafers, I could eat just one. So the symbolizm of God being sweet and something that we hunger for and greedily devour, is replaced with something that seems related to white glue.

Oh, and the white color. There is just no way that the passover bread was white bread. Those milling techniques weren't developed for quite awhile after that time. I guess now someone would argue for the white symobolizing sinlessness or being without blemish, but if that's the case, it certainly wasn't symobolized that way in the original.

But I'd be willing to give on the color, if we could just have some sweetness. Maybe we will have to make our own and use some barley in it, that really sweetens the bread.

That's the one that bothers me to total losing of the symbolizm of the bread. We are going to switch from the wafers and try another product for awhile. Maybe we'll have to start buying Matzo and breaking it up.

Marv

LilLamb219 · May 3, 2007

There is no grape juice option at my church (from what I've ever seen). We do have individual cups (plastic), but I prefer to drink from the common cup (unless I have a cold sore or am sick and then I'll respectfully use an individual cup). We also have the wafers but the church used to use homemade bread, but it was too crumbly.

If we run out of bread/wine, what is brought in gets the words of institution spoken over them and there is no doubt that the Lord's body and blood are in, with and under the bread and wine.

DaRev · May 3, 2007

BigNorsk said:
Grape juice doesn't bother me, it's still the fruit of the vine. Though it is true that almost certainly it was indeed fermented wine.

If you took wine that had been sitting in a wineskin for months and served that at Communion, I think intincture or just taking the bread would be a lot more popular.

One thing I don't like is the wafers of bread. The reason being that the unleavened bread was sweet as compared to the sourdough the Israelites normally had.

Exo 12:17 kjv
(17) And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.

The word translated unleavened bread is this from Strong's (I use it because it's easy to post as far as I can tell, it agrees with newer works)

H4682
מצּה
matstsâh
mats-tsaw'
From H4711 in the sense of greedily devouring for sweetness; properly sweetness; concretely sweet (that is, not soured or bittered with yeast); specifically an unfermented cake or loaf, or (elliptically) the festival of Passover (because no leaven was then used): - unleavened (bread, cake), without leaven.

I do not find the wafers to be sweet and if there was a big plate of them, I would not be tempted in the least to greedily devour them. This from a guy who can't stop eating a bag of chips until my bleeding fingers scrape through the bottom of the sack. A bag of Communion wafers, I could eat just one. So the symbolizm of God being sweet and something that we hunger for and greedily devour, is replaced with something that seems related to white glue.

Oh, and the white color. There is just no way that the passover bread was white bread. Those milling techniques weren't developed for quite awhile after that time. I guess now someone would argue for the white symobolizing sinlessness or being without blemish, but if that's the case, it certainly wasn't symobolized that way in the original.

But I'd be willing to give on the color, if we could just have some sweetness. Maybe we will have to make our own and use some barley in it, that really sweetens the bread.

That's the one that bothers me to total losing of the symbolizm of the bread. We are going to switch from the wafers and try another product for awhile. Maybe we'll have to start buying Matzo and breaking it up.

Marv

There's the problem with using Strong's references. They give an entire semantic field of a word and people seem to think that the whole meaning must be applied.

From the BDB Hebrew lexicon:

hC'm; n.f. unleavened bread, or cake(s) -- unleavened bread, prepared in form of ~x,l,; used at ordinary meals (prepared hastily); elsewhere at sacrificial meals, e.g. ritual peace- offerings; consecration of priesthood; at peace-offering of Nazirite; at Passover; esp. at feast of unleavened bread [cakes] for 7 days after Passover. During these seven days all Israel ate twcm.

Nothing in there about flavor or color or grain. It is simply hastily prepared bread made without yeast.

Studeclunker · May 3, 2007

Though I disliked the man, there was one thing the pastor at Faith Lutheran did that I liked. He was given a recipie for unlevened bread by another pastor. So, on a lark, he made up a batch. It was pretty good and the elders and he decided to try serving it as the host in communion that Sunday. This new bread went over very well. It was amusing when he held up the first 'loaf' and broke it. The whole thing crumbled into little pieces and cascaded onto the plate and all over the altar. The look on his face was absolutely hysterical. All of us in the congregation, were suffocating from holding back mirth. Anyway, the bread was well recieved and that's what we used afterwards. Another benefit was the cost. Making our own bread cost pennies compared to buying the euchrist wafers. Tasted better too.

dinkime · May 3, 2007

doesnt anything taste better than communion wafers?? i mean, they could pass out pieces of printer paper and it would taste better!

DaRev · May 3, 2007

At my field ed church in Illinois, they used Port for communion wine. I remember the confirmation class was required to take their first communion from the common cup (I require it also). I almost laughed out loud because the kids were downing it. We had to fill the chalice three times when they were up there.
I think pastor had to sit them down afterwards and explain to them again what it was they were drinking.

LilLamb219 · May 3, 2007

Rev, do you hand them the cup or do you still maintain a good hold on it? Just curious.

I allow my pastor to hold it completely and I just stretch my neck forward (like a giraffe I guess LOL).

WildStrawberry · May 3, 2007

When my confirmation class was first communed, on Maunday Thursday the week after confirmation, one of my buddies and I were talking on the way out to the car afterwards.

She said "well, I didn't care at ALL for the bread but the wine was GOOD!!!"

And we all burst out laughing.

Now the kids get to taste the unconsecrated bread and wine a few weeks before confirmation so they know what to expect and can focus on what's in under and around the elements.

Kae

TCat · May 5, 2007

My church offers both wine and grape juice and regular wafers as well as gluten free. I don't think it is any big deal either way.

After my young nephew died recently from alcohol poisoning my my son has vowed that he will let no alcohol pass his lips ever, including communion wine and so he takes the grape juice. I am glad there is that alternative for those who feel so strongly about it,

DaSeminarian · May 5, 2007

LilLamb219 said:
Rev, do you hand them the cup or do you still maintain a good hold on it? Just curious.

I allow my pastor to hold it completely and I just stretch my neck forward (like a giraffe I guess LOL).

At my fieldwork church, I am in charge of the common cup and I do not give the whole cup to them. I hold it and tip it for them.

DaRev · May 5, 2007

LilLamb219 said:
Rev, do you hand them the cup or do you still maintain a good hold on it? Just curious.

I allow my pastor to hold it completely and I just stretch my neck forward (like a giraffe I guess LOL).

I hold the chalice, but I encourage them to take the bottom and tip it so they have control over how much they get. I do have a few, however, who will not touch it so I have to tip it for them.

DaRev · May 5, 2007

TCat said:
My church offers both wine and grape juice and regular wafers as well as gluten free. I don't think it is any big deal either way.

After my young nephew died recently from alcohol poisoning my my son has vowed that he will let no alcohol pass his lips ever, including communion wine and so he takes the grape juice. I am glad there is that alternative for those who feel so strongly about it,

Like I have said before, we have grape juice available only for those who have a physical intolerance to alcohol (an inherited practice), but if I were able to do so I would only offer wine in keeping with the Lord's command. There are other ways to partake of the blood of Christ for those with such physical afflictions including intincture.

While I am saddend at the passing of your nephew, I don't believe that that is a reason not to adhere to our Lord's institution to receive His blood. Such a tradegy should be an opportunity to teach responsible consumption of alcohol.

seajoy · May 5, 2007

seajoy said:
My son-in-law has some alcoholism in his family, and has decided not to ever drink alcohol. That said....he still partakes of Christ's blood in, with, and under the wine, as he says that is biblical. Other than communion, he has never drunk alcohol.

I think folks can go overboard with this....and intinction seems like the best option for those with health problems.

Tcat...please take a look at how my son-in-law handles a similar situation.
I must agree with what was said in another post...."in keeping with the Lord's command."

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