Grace & Truth

dallasapple · Jan 11, 2011

mkgal1 said:
Okay...this may be a way to clarify what I am saying. In the situation we are discussing....someone that can be characterized by a certain behavior that is destructive (sin)...when I said they need "focused attention"...I don't mean being sat in a chair being lectured about how "wrong" they are...and how they need to "stop it!!". What I mean is....they and their issus deserve the attention...as THAT is the core issue...the main priority, that has eternal consequences. The marriage issues will be discussed later....as trying to chase two rabbits at the same time will leave the main priority being taken away from. Every one has limits on what they can put their attention towards.....and someone not having the strength to be set free is a big deal....and it will have fall out and effect everyone near it.

So many people seem to have the opinion that it "isn't fair" or lacks compassion to focus on one person in a marriage issue....and that it is wrong to "blame" one and not the other spouse. But, maybe we ought to have a different outlook....I don't believe it to "lack compassion"....I believe it to BE compassion...and it isn't "blaming"....it is giving that person the help they DESERVE. It is a privledge for them to receive the help....NOT a punishment.

This is so true..If you look at full blown addiction as a disease process..that is SEPERATE from marital issues..YOU must then focus on ONLY the addiction when adressing the ADDICTION.

Isnt fair?I agree how is it "unfair" to focus soley on recovering from a horrible prison like existance that is caused by the ADDICTION only not by ones spouse?

If you are for instance being told by your employers..that you are at risk of being terminated for missed days at work..And they realize and are willing to work with you for a known substance abuse problem including giving you leave for treatment..Would you then say ..BUT you promised me a raise that I never got..and that new secretary is not giving me my messages..what about that?Why are we ONLY focussing on my substance abuse issues?Thats not "fair" !

Conservativation · Jan 11, 2011

dallasapple said:
This is so true..If you look at full blown addiction as a disease process..that is SEPERATE from marital issues..YOU must then focus on ONLY the addiction when adressing the ADDICTION.

Isnt fair?I agree how is it "unfair" to focus soley on recovering from a horrible prison like existance that is caused by the ADDICTION only not by ones spouse?

If you are for instance being told by your employers..that you are at risk of being terminated for missed days at work..And they realize and are willing to work with you for a known substance abuse problem including giving you leave for treatment..Would you then say ..BUT you promised me a raise that I never got..and that new secretary is not giving me my messages..what about that?Why are we ONLY focussing on my substance abuse issues?Thats not "fair" !

This is why Im asking...does all this apply to things other than addiction.

I think its a reasonable and important question.

Folks agree about addiction. What about other things?

FaithPrevails · Jan 11, 2011

Infidelity and abuse. That was my answer before and still is. lol

Conservativation · Jan 11, 2011

Id agree
But I was hoping for a broad consensus because the OP drifted into the addiction discussion and it was the example by which some standards seemed to be arrived at, so to what would those apply. A spouse who is ignoring the other....well some call that abuse, some dont, its not important and I do not wish to debate that....what I do want to know is though, would you recommend this same set of unilateral focused approach there, or wouldnt it be better to see and talk to both sides, since it is a RELATIONAL issue, which involves by definition 2 people, and therefore both sides MUST be considered.

I was hoping to see what others think, and Im not trying to argue about my specific example, it was just an example

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

Here is a little bit of Pastor John Baker's testimony...he is one of the pastors at Saddleback Church as leader of recovery and small groups.

John Baker said:
Up to this point everything sounds fine. It almost sounds boring. But, you see, there was this problem. I had to be the best in everything I did because deep down inside I never felt good enough for my parents, my teammates, my girlfriends, or anyone. So if I wasn't good enough for them, how could I ever be good enough to serve God?

I wrestled with God's call and judged myself "unworthy" to enter the ministry. So after high school, instead of taking the path that would lead to seminary, I went to the University of Missouri. When I packed for my freshman year I took my non-existent self- esteem with me. I joined a fraternity and soon discovered the solution, or what I believed to be the solution for all my life's hurts - alcohol! It worked! I fit in! For the first time in my life I felt like I belonged. That burning, that emptiness inside went away, for a while. I was majoring in business administration, with a minor in partying.

(details in between snipped out for the sake of trying to keep this short)

I was a leader in my church's youth ministry. I thought it was normal to leave work early and stop by a bar before the Wednesday night meeting so I could relate better to the kids. Didn’t everybody? I was my son’s Little League coach for 5 years. Again, I thought it was normal to stop by the pizza joint with my assistant coach for a few pitchers of beer after every game. Didn't everybody? Talk about insanity!
Slowly I became more and more uncomfortable leading this lifestyle and had to face a major decision. You know, conviction is really uncomfortable! I had a choice here, do it my way - continue drinking and living by the world's standards; or surrender and repent and do it God's way.
I wish I could stand here and tell you that I saw the light and did it God’s way. But, the truth is, I chose my way. My drinking increased and I turned my back completely on God.
Prov 14:12 (TLB) says, "Before every man there lies a wide and pleasant road that seems right but ends in death."

I was known as a functioning alcoholic. I knew I had a problem, but I never lost a job or never got arrested for drunk driving. Up to this point my secret was still safe. Cheryl was in denial, or so I thought. My wife just couldn’t label me as an "alcoholic" until she noticed my new breakfast drink - beer! One evening over the minor issue of my refusal to go for pie with some friends, in her anger she asked me to go to counseling with her or to just leave. Much to her surprise, I left! And our separation began.
The only things my hurts, hang-ups and habits cost me were my close relationship with the Lord and my family. You see, what I had considered the solution for my life's problem - alcohol - became the problem of my life! And finally my drinking cost me all purpose and reason for living. I was dying physically, emotionally, mentally, and most importantly spiritually!

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

mkgal1 said:
Here is a little bit of Pastor John Baker's testimony...he is one of the pastors at Saddleback Church as leader of recovery and small groups.

One evening over the minor issue of my refusal to go for pie with some friends, in her anger she asked me to go to counseling with her or to just leave. Much to her surprise, I left! And our separation began.
The only things my hurts, hang-ups and habits cost me were my close relationship with the Lord and my family. You see, what I had considered the solution for my life's problem - alcohol - became the problem of my life! And finally my drinking cost me all purpose and reason for living. I was dying physically, emotionally, mentally, and most importantly spiritually!

The way I see Pastor Baker's testimony is...that it isn't the acting out on the addiction that is the root sin....it is that he valued himself as an individual over the marriage unit (as an entity that included he and his wife). He was willing to have his wife and family walk away from him, but he wasn't going to allow his wife and family get between him and his drinking.

He protected his alchohol....not his family. THAT is the core issue...and that was most likely evident earlier on, before it had become a full-blown addiction...most likely back before he even met his wife...when he first discovered alchohol in college. That he was using the alchohol to mask and deal with things. To medicate himself through life. His alchohol became an idol...and he was willing to trade everything for it...."just don't touch the alchohol...you can take everything else."

mkgal1 · Jan 12, 2011

The "Positive" Hospital Parable

Imagine a doctor in a clean, well lit hospital having the following dialog with a patient: "What seems to be the problem?" The patient replies, "My fingers are great." "Good, but what is wrong with you." "Well, my feet are really feeling fantastic." "Fine, but this is a hospital, what can we do for you?" "Well, let me brag about my legs, I have been walking on them all day!" "Great, but this is a place of healing. Around here, we focus on what is wrong so that we can make you fully healthy. Now then, where does it hurt." Now imagine the patient saying: "That isn't very positive, I would rather talk about what is right about me" or "I think I'll find a new hospital. I feel so "sick" here, everyone seems to be so judgmental and faultfinding."

Or, on the contrary, imagine a more needy patient going into a hospital and begging for help for a particular problem, and having the doctor say, "Don't condemn yourself by admitting you have a problem. I don't receive that, brother! Let's focus on the positive. Besides, we were having a cheerful conversation about how great the hospital administrator is... " The church should function as a spiritual hospital. A place for sinners to come and be healed. But more often, in modern Christianity, churches have become places where people are affirmed in their sickness, or worse still where sick people brag about self-wellness.

Romanseight2005 · Jan 12, 2011

mkgal1 said:
The "Positive" Hospital Parable

Imagine a doctor in a clean, well lit hospital having the following dialog with a patient: "What seems to be the problem?" The patient replies, "My fingers are great." "Good, but what is wrong with you." "Well, my feet are really feeling fantastic." "Fine, but this is a hospital, what can we do for you?" "Well, let me brag about my legs, I have been walking on them all day!" "Great, but this is a place of healing. Around here, we focus on what is wrong so that we can make you fully healthy. Now then, where does it hurt." Now imagine the patient saying: "That isn't very positive, I would rather talk about what is right about me" or "I think I'll find a new hospital. I feel so "sick" here, everyone seems to be so judgmental and faultfinding."

Or, on the contrary, imagine a more needy patient going into a hospital and begging for help for a particular problem, and having the doctor say, "Don't condemn yourself by admitting you have a problem. I don't receive that, brother! Let's focus on the positive. Besides, we were having a cheerful conversation about how great the hospital administrator is... " The church should function as a spiritual hospital. A place for sinners to come and be healed. But more often, in modern Christianity, churches have become places where people are affirmed in their sickness, or worse still where sick people brag about self-wellness.

This is so true! It seems that the word grace has come to mean, in many churches, that God is happy with our sins. Or that what they need to be freed from isn't their sin, but rather, any and all, expectations. In fact, if you believe that God has any expectations of you,(not for the purpose of getting saved, but rather an expectation of showing the work done in you) Than you are a legalist. That definition has also changed.

Conservativation · Jan 12, 2011

Yes few churches have the nerve to, for example, hold anyone accountable for an unBiblical divorce, or to even call it sin. When in fact they should be shining the light of sin truth brightly into the eyes of those filing divorces for reasons that are truly not Biblical....not the extrapolations of whats Biblical...but whats REALLY Biblical.

Unless and until they do that one, they would have no credibility on the others anyway.

It would all be good...if only.

McScribe · Jan 12, 2011

It seems like it depends on the sin, whether or not Christians worry about grace and conviction and all that.

Freedom from sin is really only one thing--relying upon God. So I wonder how the OP ties in with for example Jesus' treatment of the woman taken in adultery. This seems to be a typical way in which Jesus handles sin, if you can call anything Jesus did typical. He makes it very clear to the men who have taken the woman to punish her that they themselves are not sinless. And when he says "go and sin no more" it is often simplistically taken to be that she ought not to commit adultery again. But it seems to me that Jesus' approach is never piecemeal like that. It is always about encouraging that deep relationship with God that makes sin unecessary because we realize what a good Father in Heaven we really have.

The hard thing is when you are in an intimate relationship with someone it is really really difficult to deal with this. Sins that a person may be caught up in affect us personally and so it's hard not to want to simply fix the problem. In fact it's almost impossible. But all things are possible with God. What I'm trying to point out is that while we may point out the truth it may not be up to us to make sure that another person receives it at that moment. That may require us to make decisions that are uncomfortable or difficult or painful. Like for example having a drug addict around your kids is probably a bad idea. But you see that's a practical thing. The guy who had Legion inside him had chains around him (which didn't work) until Jesus sent the demons away. So maybe in the face of constant sin we need to be pursuing God's wisdom in how to deal with it.

Conservativation · Jan 12, 2011

"It seems like it depends on the sin, whether or not Christians worry about grace and conviction and all that."

This I can agree with 1000000%

Romanseight2005 · Jan 12, 2011

But Mcscribe the problem is that you seem to be saying that restoring a person is somehow the same as punishing them. Furthermore, let's look at what the pharisees were doing to the woman. They were not punishing her. What they were literally doing was murdering her in a vicious way, I might add. What Jesus did was to restore her. This is what the OP is advocating. Restoration, which entails cleansing. He didn't say, go on and keep on doing what you are doing, it's all good. He told her to go and sin no more. We certainly don't hear that preached. Somehow the idea of restoring, is now looked at as punishing. I think that is the whole premise of this thread.

Conservativation · Jan 12, 2011

Good that you agree. Restoration isnt something we can do, its Jesus who does it.

Thats a great thing to have realized. If the premise had anything to do with people restoring people, its flawed. We can onlky offer grace and/or truth (the premise) not restoration

mkgal1 · Jan 12, 2011

Most of the time, divorce is a SYMPTOM of other sin....not the actual root sin.

Sin destroys...and a marriage dissolving is the destruction.

McScribe · Jan 12, 2011

Romans, I'm not literally saying that going to a Christian counselor is like being stoned to death. What I'm saying is two things: first that Jesus says very clearly that we should be careful to examine the beam in our own eye first. He is also very clear when he says that then we can pluck the beam from our neighbor's eye. Second, I'm saying that it is too tempting to focus on the particular sin of the woman taken in adultery when Jesus came to free us from our SINS--every one of them. So he doesn't say 'don't sleep around anymore' he says 'don't SIN anymore'.

Besides, I thought that was something you and MK agreed with, that it's not our particular sins that are the problem but our relationship with God that has to become better.

mkgal1 · Jan 12, 2011

Conservativation said:
Good that you agree. Restoration isnt something we can do, its Jesus who does it.

Thats a great thing to have realized. If the premise had anything to do with people restoring people, its flawed. We can only offer grace and/or truth (the premise) not restoration

And that is what the article was asking for...or pointing out...that truth needs to be offered.

Romanseight2005 · Jan 12, 2011

McScribe said:
Romans, I'm not literally saying that going to a Christian counselor is like being stoned to death. What I'm saying is two things: first that Jesus says very clearly that we should be careful to examine the beam in our own eye first. He is also very clear when he says that then we can pluck the beam from our neighbor's eye. Second, I'm saying that it is too tempting to focus on the particular sin of the woman taken in adultery when Jesus came to free us from our SINS--every one of them. So he doesn't say 'don't sleep around anymore' he says 'don't SIN anymore'.

Besides, I thought that was something you and MK agreed with, that it's not our particular sins that are the problem but our relationship with God that has to become better.

Yes, I agree with everything you posted here. It sounded like you were saying in your other post, that what this thread was suggesting, was punishment of sin. Also, people commonly look at the wife caught in adultery with a figurative lens. That is why I felt the need to point out the literalness of that passage.

Romanseight2005 · Jan 12, 2011

Gal 6:1-5

Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load.
NKJV

Conservativation · Jan 12, 2011

mkgal1 said:
Most of the time, divorce is a SYMPTOM of other sin....not the actual root sin.

Sin destroys...and a marriage dissolving is the destruction.

If I steal because Im hungry, is stealing a sin, or a symptom

No, the divorce Im talking about is sin. Sin is sin is sin, not to bog down in divorce here. There are not mitigating circumstances making one sin less because its a symptom or whatever rationale.
Divorce without Biblical cause is sin, its as simple as that and it shouldnt be hard to say or accept. Until they do, the rest is window dressing as a witness.

Conservativation · Jan 12, 2011

Romanseight2005 said:
Gal 6:1-5

Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load.
NKJV

Different restore...hopefully you realize that. That we can pull the same word out doesnt mean the same thing

OR, are you saying we can do as Jesus did?

I wont argue this....its just not the case. Maybe some folks think they can....but they cant. Leave Godly restoration to God.

Whats referred to in the passage here is what could be called "getting him back on his feet"....not a spiritual restoration.

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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