Grace & Truth

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

FaithPrevails said:
I'm not saying people can't - I firmly believe we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. But, not everyone is strong enough to overcome and find hope in that scripture. They are ruled by doubt, fear, hopelessness, etc. That is the part that I feel needs the compassion. I'm sure there are countless people who would like to recover from whatever rules them, but they simply can't find the strength. How many people struggle with God's promise that when we are weak, He is strong?

It is one thing to encourage them to find the strength they need to overcome in God. It's quite another to be frustrated/angry with them when they fail to do so. JMHO

And that is just where our enemy is hard at work....causing people to believe his lies that they cannot overcome. That is his main tactic....and one we need to be aware of...but, we also need to be able to remind people that Christ overcame evil on the cross...and will get the title deed back from this earth and ALL will be restored---the physical and spiritual. God is bigger than our enemy....HE is bigger than all sin. When Christ died on that cross....it was for ALL sin. It is a battle between who we are going to believe--how we behave is fruit of who we are believing. If someone is in the habit of believing our enemy.....then that needs to be overcome...for their sake as well as those around them that love them. That isn't lacking compassion....to me....that is the very definition of compassion and God's love. Believing the devil's lives can be a death sentence.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

FaithPrevails said:
Thanks for the clarification. It has sounded up to this point that the anger/frustration is directed at the person.

I am not sure why it has sounded that way....I have said many times the anger is at the sin and its destruction. Did you watch the video I posted...BTW? That clarifies what I am saying best.

FaithPrevails said:
In your opinion, how does one address the sin without making it seem like they are addressing the person? I ask b/c I don't see yelling as an effective way to do that. Probably b/c I don't like to be yelled at. lol

Again....I would ask you to watch the video, if you haven't already...as there was yelling there..but, you can see the frustration behind the yelling was at the addiction--and love for the person.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

dallasapple said:
Well Im saying if we are to put them in the same category ...then people with mental illness(such as bi/polar/schitzpphrenia/depression) have fallen into habitual sin by being afflicted with those disorders.So we would be saying a person for example with bi/polar type 1 in an acute stage of mania who is "clincally" paranoid and having delusions who attacks someone physically is in the same category as someone who deliberately goes out and seeks some acid to get high on knowing it will cause them to halucinate and under that influence attacks someone.

I get what you are saying...and that is one of the reasons why I don't agree with the two being placed into the same category either. Mental illness isn't within a person's control...although some do believe that as well---there are many that believe it is a "sin issue" for a Chrisitan to be depressed. That is exactly the trouble with doing that...mental illness is not sin.........nor is addiction "out of someone's control". On their own....most likely it is....but, God has promised HIS help. When God is on our side (and we are on HIS)........we will never be outstrengthened.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

Psychology of Addiction article cited by FaithPrevails said:
So addiction is largely in the mind and if a person wants, he or she can overcome this extreme dependence on an activity or a substance through self control and with better insight into his condition.

I think often the problem lies in the belief that a person CAN fight this on their own with self-control and insight. (I am confused now though...as you said you were in agreement with this quote--it seems to be in opposition with what you have been saying).

When you FP, say that "it isn't easily with in their control"...I would agree that relying on SELF-control is going to lead to frustration...and hitting the wall.

It is relying on God (not self) that is going to offer the REAL solution....that is why labeling it properly (as sin) is going to get to the root issue...and have life-long results...IMO.

*Did you notice, BTW, that in Brian Welch's video he said pride paved the way for his addiction? That it began with the *high* of the crowds cheering...that "puffed him up" and made him feel as they were worshipping him. He admitted that is where drugs crept in...where pride opened the door. It is a slow fade that begins with one sin.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

FaithPrevails said:
But, the reaction to those who struggle to believe that message is what I am reading as condemnation. Knowing something and embracing it/putting it into effect in our lives can often be two very different things.

So, what do you believe is the best way to approach a person who struggles to receive the message you stated above? In other words - what does grace look like in their case? Because we can't just have grace for those who succeed in overcoming sin.

Well.....there IS condemnation for those who struggle to believe that message...until they DO embrace it and believe it (at least that is how I am reading the Bible). It is unfortunate to think that many will not make it to heaven....but, our God is holy and righteous...and cannot "mix" with sin--although HE is not wanting any to perish.

It is through believing in Christ that we receive our robes of righteousness....it isn't through "kicking bad habits" or not getting into addictive behavior to begin with (as even those who haven't had addictions...had SIN--and were condemned). Many believe in God--Satan himself believes in God and believes in HIS power....that doesn't mean he is going to be in heaven. You are absolutely right that there is a difference between knowing something and putting it into effect...It is putting things into effect when we are surrendering to Christ and following HIM......not just sitting back and having head knowledge. I certainly do not know the line of distinction that God draws as far as salvation is concerned (looking at Galatians 5:21--it SEEMS that salvation is based on what we put into effect in our lives...not just what we know).......but, personally...I see no reason to follow after the lies of this world....it is much better to believe in God's promises and WALK in them....than to sit back and only know of them second-hand.

As to your next bolded statement....actually yes, grace IS only for those who have confessed and repented. That doesn't mean it is reserved until there is a full recovery (as we are seen as "righteous" when we do confess and repent) AND it is God that does the "washing" and purifying....not us. It is backwards to say the grace comes AFTER the recovery....there IS a recovery BECAUSE of the grace.

Conservativation · Jan 11, 2011

Unbelievers beat addictions too

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

pobodysnerfect said:
How can you know that for 100% sure? The bible never tells us what his thorn was, just that he had one and was left to struggle with it. Even if it was physical affliction, the message is the same. God doesn't always blanket promise deliverance from what afflicts us.

What Rom8 said is true....even if it was a life-long temptation to sin....something like "pride" ....I agree that temptation doesn't place someone in the category as "habitual sinner".....and it seems we are relying too heavily on what the world says about addictions....and neglecting to focus on what the Bible says about promises to not have to have sin overrule us.

I see a difference between a life-long battle with sin (which you are right, Pobody....we ALL fight with that...and are all just one choice away from "habitual sin")...and saying that a person is "consumed" with addiction. It just seems to be blurring the lines and confusing the issue.....IMO. But, when we state it for what it is.....a battle against sin (what we ALL are afflicted with--not just a select few, with a disease that is said to be beyond their control, called "addiction").....that seems to lift the veil of deception...and take away the belief that one "can't overcome it". We are promised a way out from EVERY temptation that is common to man.

1 Corinthians 10:13 said:
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

Conservativation said:
Unbelievers beat addictions too

They quit the behavior...yes...but, does that mean they are "healed"? Or...in the case of alchoholism...do they just act out differently...like a dry drunk?

FaithPrevails · Jan 11, 2011

mkgal1 said:
And that is just where our enemy is hard at work....causing people to believe his lies that they cannot overcome. That is his main tactic....and one we need to be aware of...but, we also need to be able to remind people that Christ overcame evil on the cross...and will get the title deed back from this earth and ALL will be restored---the physical and spiritual. God is bigger than our enemy....HE is bigger than all sin. When Christ died on that cross....it was for ALL sin. It is a battle between who we are going to believe--how we behave is fruit of who we are believing. If someone is in the habit of believing our enemy.....then that needs to be overcome...for their sake as well as those around them that love them. That isn't lacking compassion....to me....that is the very definition of compassion and God's love. Believing the devil's lives can be a death sentence.

Knowing that and expecting every person - especially one struggling deeply in sin - to live that out in their lives are two very different things. That's all I'm trying to say.

Yes, it is good to hold on to that hope for everyone. It doesn't mean everyone is going to hold onto it for themselves. I'm just trying to be realistic. At some point, trying to convince someone so lost in sin can actually turn them away. It frustrates them and they don't want to be told they can overcome it. It's wrong, but it is what it is and all we can do for some people is pray that they will eventually find their way out of the darkness. But, the reality is that not everyone does.

Pray for the best, expect the worst. I guess that summarizes what I'm trying to say. Because we can't control the choices they make and God gave them free will, so He won't control the choices they make, either.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

FaithPrevails said:
I agree with this, too. But, depending on what the pain is that they are avoiding/escaping, they may not feel strong enough to be set free. In order to be set free, they have to be able to confront what was done to cause the pain. Doing that can cause flashbacks (PTSD), anxiety, depression, etc. It is a painful and difficult process. It can take years - if the person is even willing to confront the past.

Okay...this may be a way to clarify what I am saying. In the situation we are discussing....someone that can be characterized by a certain behavior that is destructive (sin)...when I said they need "focused attention"...I don't mean being sat in a chair being lectured about how "wrong" they are...and how they need to "stop it!!". What I mean is....they and their issus deserve the attention...as THAT is the core issue...the main priority, that has eternal consequences. The marriage issues will be discussed later....as trying to chase two rabbits at the same time will leave the main priority being taken away from. Every one has limits on what they can put their attention towards.....and someone not having the strength to be set free is a big deal....and it will have fall out and effect everyone near it.

So many people seem to have the opinion that it "isn't fair" or lacks compassion to focus on one person in a marriage issue....and that it is wrong to "blame" one and not the other spouse. But, maybe we ought to have a different outlook....I don't believe it to "lack compassion"....I believe it to BE compassion...and it isn't "blaming"....it is giving that person the help they DESERVE. It is a privledge for them to receive the help....NOT a punishment.

Conservativation · Jan 11, 2011

mkgal1 said:
They quit the behavior...yes...but, does that mean they are "healed"? Or...in the case of alchoholism...do they just act out differently...like a dry drunk?

Well, we dont know do we. Thats the point.
Im not prone to judging them as NOT healed.

Every real drunk is a dry drunk anyway. It means that they cannot ever drink one dram of alcohol lest they slide back into it.
Thats the rub with this whole thing. IF you say OK that person was supernaturally healed of alcoholism.....then if that healing was 100% they should be able to have a sip, shouldnt they? IF a sip is dangerous and can send them plummeting, then they are not 100% healed.

FaithPrevails · Jan 11, 2011

mkgal1 said:
I get what you are saying...and that is one of the reasons why I don't agree with the two being placed into the same category either. Mental illness isn't within a person's control...although some do believe that as well---there are many that believe it is a "sin issue" for a Chrisitan to be depressed. That is exactly the trouble with doing that...mental illness is not sin.........nor is addiction "out of someone's control". On their own....most likely it is....but, God has promised HIS help. When God is on our side (and we are on HIS)........we will never be outstrengthened.

Have you ever felt so utterly hopeless about a situation - so destitute - that you couldn't see your way out of it....or how God could even get you out of it? That is where the roadblock lies for someone who is struggling to break the chains of addiction.

Also, as the article cited, mental illness and addiction often go hand in hand. So, I think it's quick to assume that any addiction can be beat and is always within a person's control. If they are mentally ill, they lack the ability to make decisions effectively for themselves a lot of times and resist having someone else tell them what is best for them.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

I am not going to debate with you, Cons.

Conservativation · Jan 11, 2011

Good

I took out the last sentence, leaving nothing even debatable in my post anyway. The rest is all unequivocal

FaithPrevails · Jan 11, 2011

mkgal1 said:
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I think often the problem lies in the belief that a person CAN fight this on their own with self-control and insight. (I am confused now though...as you said you were in agreement with this quote--it seems to be in opposition with what you have been saying).

When you FP, say that "it isn't easily with in their control"...I would agree that relying on SELF-control is going to lead to frustration...and hitting the wall.

I qualified it by saying this:

However, I will reiterate - plenty of people suffering with addictions would love to be free of it. It's just not always as simple as walking away from it. They may lack willpower or faith or both.

It is relying on God (not self) that is going to offer the REAL solution....that is why labeling it properly (as sin) is going to get to the root issue...and have life-long results...IMO.

As I said - easy to say, much more difficult to apply for some people.

Did you notice, BTW, that in Brian Welch's video he said pride paved the way for his addiction? That it began with the *high* of the crowds cheering...that "puffed him up" and made him feel as they were worshipping him. He admitted that is where drugs crept in...where pride opened the door. It is a slow fade that begins with one sin.

If you agree that it's a slow fade to begin the sin, doesn't it stand to reason that it can be a slow process to overcome it? The expectation seems to be that turning it over to God would instantaneously (or at least in a short amount of time) bring healing.

They say healing from a divorce can take half as long as the length of the marriage. So, 10 years married can take up to 5 years to completely heal. This is an average and result vary depending on the individual. But, I would apply this statistic to addiction recovery, as well. Healing and re-discovering oneself is a process. Everyone proceeds at their own pace. Some get stuck along they way, some fall. I don't see how that's negatable.

FaithPrevails · Jan 11, 2011

mkgal1 said:
As to your next bolded statement....actually yes, grace IS only for those who have confessed and repented. That doesn't mean it is reserved until there is a full recovery (as we are seen as "righteous" when we do confess and repent) AND it is God that does the "washing" and purifying....not us. It is backwards to say the grace comes AFTER the recovery....there IS a recovery BECAUSE of the grace.

God's grace - yes, not our grace! I said we, not He. His grace is reserved for those who turn from sin and repent and seek His will/follow His path. We, on the other hand, should have grace for everyone, IMO. We are no better than someone struggling in sin. We all sin, even if we aren't struggling with the same sin consistently. To God, the way I sin is no greater or lesser than how an addict struggles in sin. We need to be careful not to lose sight of that.

mkgal1 · Jan 11, 2011

FaithPrevails said:
Have you ever felt so utterly hopeless about a situation - so destitute - that you couldn't see your way out of it....or how God could even get you out of it? That is where the roadblock lies for someone who is struggling to break the chains of addiction.

Also, as the article cited, mental illness and addiction often go hand in hand. So, I think it's quick to assume that any addiction can be beat and is always within a person's control. If they are mentally ill, they lack the ability to make decisions effectively for themselves a lot of times and resist having someone else tell them what is best for them.

Yes....I have....many times. And...what got me through was God's promises. If someone, on the other hand, told me....."it just isn't easily within your control...you are going to be "consumed" with this for ever in this life...." I would have most likely killed myself right then, because during those times, I was actually teetering on the edge of WANTING to kill myself....and those promises gave me HOPE in the future, and were what changed my mind.

The distinction HAS to be made though....what is treatable...and what is truly beyond someone's control. Personally....I like to believe that much is treatable ( I don't mean there is medical healing in all situations)......or at the very least....to the point of acceptable living.

When I hear about a medical condition where someone is suffering in extreme pain.....I don't accept that as being the way things will be or should be. I have a friend right now who's father is in so much pain, they had to remove all the guns from his home b/c he kept saying he wanted to go out to the barn and put himself "out of the misery". My friend and her mom are overwhelmed by this....they cannot see the way out...so, I feel responsible to help try to find some sort of resolution. It is NOT acceptable to hear "we can't find anything wrong" and to have to have someone live with pain like that.

FaithPrevails · Jan 11, 2011

mkgal1 said:
Okay...this may be a way to clarify what I am saying. In the situation we are discussing....someone that can be characterized by a certain behavior that is destructive (sin)...when I said they need "focused attention"...I don't mean being sat in a chair being lectured about how "wrong" they are...and how they need to "stop it!!". What I mean is....they and their issus deserve the attention...as THAT is the core issue...the main priority, that has eternal consequences. The marriage issues will be discussed later....as trying to chase two rabbits at the same time will leave the main priority being taken away from. Every one has limits on what they can put their attention towards.....and someone not having the strength to be set free is a big deal....and it will have fall out and effect everyone near it.

So many people seem to have the opinion that it "isn't fair" or lacks compassion to focus on one person in a marriage issue....and that it is wrong to "blame" one and not the other spouse. But, maybe we ought to have a different outlook....I don't believe it to "lack compassion"....I believe it to BE compassion...and it isn't "blaming"....it is giving that person the help they DESERVE. It is a privledge for them to receive the help....NOT a punishment.

I actually completely agree. That sounds much different to me than how it has been presented throughout the thread, so maybe this has been good for both of us to flesh out exactly what we mean by certain things.

FaithPrevails · Jan 11, 2011

mkgal1 said:
Yes....I have....many times. And...what got me through was God's promises. If someone, on the other hand, told me....."it just isn't easily within your control...you are going to be "consumed" with this for ever in this life...." I would have most likely killed myself right then, because during those times, I was actually teetering on the edge of WANTING to kill myself....and those promises gave me HOPE in the future, and were what changed my mind.

The distinction HAS to be made though....what is treatable...and what is truly beyond someone's control. Personally....I like to believe that much is treatable ( I don't mean there is medical healing in all situations)......or at the very least....to the point of acceptable living.

When I hear about a medical condition where someone is suffering in extreme pain.....I don't accept that as being the way things will be or should be. I have a friend right now who's father is in so much pain, they had to remove all the guns from his home b/c he kept saying he wanted to go out to the barn and put himself "out of the misery". My friend and her mom are overwhelmed by this....they cannot see the way out...so, I feel responsible to help try to find some sort of resolution. It is NOT acceptable to hear "we can't find anything wrong" and to have to have someone live with pain like that.

Then you also know that being able to overcome situations like that are based on strength and depth of faith, yes? To someone like you or me, it may seem like it shouldn't be that hard, but to others it may seem impossible.

I have been through a lot over the last 10 years and when I share the testimony of where I have been and where God has brought me, a frequent response I get is, "Wow. You're a really strong person." To me, I didn't see any other way than to put my head down and keep moving forward. But, there are plenty of others who would have given up. I have to bear that in mind when I have expectations for others. But, I have to acknowledge that they may not believe they will get through it, too. And no amount of convincing on my part is going to change their minds. It doesn't mean I quit trying - but I have to be realistic that I may never reach them.

Conservativation · Jan 11, 2011

Just curious, and dont expect any answer, actually not asking for personal info so not seeking an answer, a bit rhetorical

There are several people who seem very passionate about what to do and how to do something for someone addicted. Some in the topic have had, in the past, an addicted spouse, others, I dont know if they have or havent.

The question is, if a person has neither had, nor presently has an addicted spouse, what is the practical applicability of this?

And secondly, its been discussed using addiction, but is this a broadly applicable action plan belief, applicable to things besides addiction? And if so, what sorts of things are cut and dry enough to apply the strong approach to INSTEAD of the marriage approach where they counsel both folks. Its a reasonable question in the context of the OP which was not sin specific.....restated...what would determine if a "sin" of a spouse was something that fell into the full bore that sin and only that sin approach, vs the approach where both are counseled on their share of the problems?

Since the OP was not sin specific, and the topic went to addiction, does anyone believe this applies to all marriage problems, some marriage problems....and how to tell?

Grace & Truth

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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