Grace & Truth

Romanseight2005 · Jan 12, 2011

What does getting him back on his feet mean? I believe it means that we pray for him, therefore inviting God's healing and restorative power into his life. But it also means confronting the sin, head on. It means that the one doing the restoring has faith, and believes that God has the power to restore the man, and that He will, if the man wants to be restored.
Heb 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
NIV
Gen 1:1 - Matt 7:12

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
NKJV

Now since God commands us to walk in love, which there is no law against, and which is the opposite of walking in sin, how would He not also empower believers to walk in Godliness, when He is called upon and asked for this?

Romanseight2005 · Jan 12, 2011

Conservativation said:
If I steal because Im hungry, is stealing a sin, or a symptom

No, the divorce Im talking about is sin. Sin is sin is sin, not to bog down in divorce here. There are not mitigating circumstances making one sin less because its a symptom or whatever rationale.
Divorce without Biblical cause is sin, its as simple as that and it shouldn't be hard to say or accept. Until they do, the rest is window dressing as a witness.

I don't think that MKgal was saying that unbiblical divorce wasn't a sin. What she seemed to be saying to me, was that divorce can often be prevented if the sins leading up to it are dealt with appropriately. I agree with this, and therefore, do not believe that divorce is where to start. The church needs to start dealing with the sins long before the divorce because frankly,once the divorce happens, it's to late to stop it.

dallasapple · Jan 12, 2011

Romanseight2005 said:
I don't think that MKgal was saying that unbiblical divorce wasn't a sin. What she seemed to be saying to me, was that divorce can often be prevented if the sins leading up to it are dealt with appropriately. I agree with this, and therefore, do not believe that divorce is where to start. The church needs to start dealing with the sins long before the divorce because frankly,once the divorce happens, it's to late to stop it.

I agree..

Especially when it was phrased as "unless until they do that one they would have no credibility on the others anyway".

I hardly think so..Its absolutely backwards to start at the end.

To me that would make about as much sense as a doctor adressing teminally ill cancer patients before he adresses those that have isolated cancer that has not spread and become terminal.

McScribe · Jan 13, 2011

Conservativation said:
Different restore...hopefully you realize that. That we can pull the same word out doesnt mean the same thing

OR, are you saying we can do as Jesus did?

I wont argue this....its just not the case. Maybe some folks think they can....but they cant. Leave Godly restoration to God.

Whats referred to in the passage here is what could be called "getting him back on his feet"....not a spiritual restoration.

Well, in a way all this talk is stuff we don't really disagree about. The real question bluntly is what do you do when you have a spouse you know is doing something sinful which they will not try to change? How do you deal with this whole truth/grace thing then?

My answer would be not to lose sight of the objective. Our objective when we are spouses is to love our spouse. I wonder if that is why some women in particular struggle with the submission thing in Ephesians, because they are fed up and want out because they've been trying for a long time and are feeling like they haven't got a lot left. And when they are urged to turn to God in their time of trouble and lack they feel like it's just cheerleading.

I think it might help those wives to understand that it's not cheerleading. I realize some incompetent preachers have made it sound like that, but that's not what it's about. It's the same encouragement all Christians need to get, to turn to the Lord in our time of troubles just like a drowning person reaches for a hand from a raft. Get away from focusing on another person when WE are each as individuals capable of a powerful and effective relationship with God.

That's how I think we keep that grace going even when it seems like our relationships are failing and the truth doesn't win any points with our spouse or anyone in our family and personal lives--we need that grace for us before we can give it to others. We need to believe that God is good to us and is with us. Because it sure doesn't feel like it when we realize that we're almost married to a stranger or alien at times or even most of the time. Like you have an argument about finances that makes you think that you're talking to someone from another planet, or you realize to your horror that sex is a big hairy monster of an issue, or that in some areas of your life your spouse just doesn't care about how you feel.

Turning to God sounds like a platitude, but I'm going to say that's a lie from the Devil. It has to be profoundly and powerfully meaningful to do it or else we might as well give up even bothering to say we're Christians.

Conservativation · Jan 13, 2011

Romanseight2005 said:
I don't think that MKgal was saying that unbiblical divorce wasn't a sin. What she seemed to be saying to me, was that divorce can often be prevented if the sins leading up to it are dealt with appropriately. I agree with this, and therefore, do not believe that divorce is where to start. The church needs to start dealing with the sins long before the divorce because frankly,once the divorce happens, it's to late to stop it.

I wasnt talking about stopping a divorce, or divorce numbers lowering strategies. See how you have rationalized your way around the sin? I was focusing, like a laser, on the divorce...not what led to it, not what comes after it, and, it seems you agree its a sin.

When that is taught with the same vim and vigor as these other things are come against....then the church has credibility on sin, because it is the bastion of cowardly church leaders. Whether it CAN stop a divorce or not is not our concern is it? Is there any other sin youd say "well, this and that led to it if we'd caught those things we wouldnt be here but now that we are here.....well we cant stop it" NO...there isnt. I choose this example because of the rationalizations it brings. It uncovers tons of hypocrisy. Its not a sin BUT.....it is a SIN period. Bit wow is that impossible to get to the point where anyone will say that. Why? Because everyone has done it...including me and most on this board, whether sinfully or not. But hang on a sec, we dont hold back on other sins that lots of people have done....so what is it different about this one that crinkles the mind into deep thoughts that bend the focus off the divorce and onto other things?

Since when was likelihood to succeed a criteria anyway? Is that up to us?

In my opinion, all the lecturing on grace and truth, all the strong language on addiction etc., is empty rhetoric until this one mind blockage is broken down. All that was said is true about things leading up....but irrelevant.

OR

How about this one then....a childs parents divorce....years later that kid turns to drugs or alcohol (we know factually that these odds are stark)...I can say hey hey why are you on about that mans addiction, its too late, if the main turmoil in his childhood would have been stopped he wouldnt be here likely.

We could rationalize all the way back to the fruit of the tree of knowledge for petes sake and say none of this would have happened if not for that.

or

we can be consistent across all things

FaithPrevails · Jan 13, 2011

McScribe said:
Well, in a way all this talk is stuff we don't really disagree about. The real question bluntly is what do you do when you have a spouse you know is doing something sinful which they will not try to change? How do you deal with this whole truth/grace thing then?

My answer would be not to lose sight of the objective. Our objective when we are spouses is to love our spouse. I wonder if that is why some women in particular struggle with the submission thing in Ephesians, because they are fed up and want out because they've been trying for a long time and are feeling like they haven't got a lot left. And when they are urged to turn to God in their time of trouble and lack they feel like it's just cheerleading.

I think it might help those wives to understand that it's not cheerleading. I realize some incompetent preachers have made it sound like that, but that's not what it's about. It's the same encouragement all Christians need to get, to turn to the Lord in our time of troubles just like a drowning person reaches for a hand from a raft. Get away from focusing on another person when WE are each as individuals capable of a powerful and effective relationship with God.

That's how I think we keep that grace going even when it seems like our relationships are failing and the truth doesn't win any points with our spouse or anyone in our family and personal lives--we need that grace for us before we can give it to others. We need to believe that God is good to us and is with us. Because it sure doesn't feel like it when we realize that we're almost married to a stranger or alien at times or even most of the time. Like you have an argument about finances that makes you think that you're talking to someone from another planet, or you realize to your horror that sex is a big hairy monster of an issue, or that in some areas of your life your spouse just doesn't care about how you feel.

Turning to God sounds like a platitude, but I'm going to say that's a lie from the Devil. It has to be profoundly and powerfully meaningful to do it or else we might as well give up even bothering to say we're Christians.

Conservativation · Jan 13, 2011

dallasapple said:
I agree..

Especially when it was phrased as "unless until they do that one they would have no credibility on the others anyway".

I hardly think so..Its absolutely backwards to start at the end.

To me that would make about as much sense as a doctor adressing teminally ill cancer patients before he adresses those that have isolated cancer that has not spread and become terminal.

yes it would be backwards to start at the end.

But who said that? what are you even on about?

Conservativation · Jan 13, 2011

McScribe said:
Well, in a way all this talk is stuff we don't really disagree about. The real question bluntly is what do you do when you have a spouse you know is doing something sinful which they will not try to change? How do you deal with this whole truth/grace thing then?

My answer would be not to lose sight of the objective. Our objective when we are spouses is to love our spouse. I wonder if that is why some women in particular struggle with the submission thing in Ephesians, because they are fed up and want out because they've been trying for a long time and are feeling like they haven't got a lot left. And when they are urged to turn to God in their time of trouble and lack they feel like it's just cheerleading.

I think it might help those wives to understand that it's not cheerleading. I realize some incompetent preachers have made it sound like that, but that's not what it's about. It's the same encouragement all Christians need to get, to turn to the Lord in our time of troubles just like a drowning person reaches for a hand from a raft. Get away from focusing on another person when WE are each as individuals capable of a powerful and effective relationship with God.

That's how I think we keep that grace going even when it seems like our relationships are failing and the truth doesn't win any points with our spouse or anyone in our family and personal lives--we need that grace for us before we can give it to others. We need to believe that God is good to us and is with us. Because it sure doesn't feel like it when we realize that we're almost married to a stranger or alien at times or even most of the time. Like you have an argument about finances that makes you think that you're talking to someone from another planet, or you realize to your horror that sex is a big hairy monster of an issue, or that in some areas of your life your spouse just doesn't care about how you feel.

Turning to God sounds like a platitude, but I'm going to say that's a lie from the Devil. It has to be profoundly and powerfully meaningful to do it or else we might as well give up even bothering to say we're Christians.

true. It would be helpful to make the context a little clearer for this thread and whats been said so far....I think I understand it in context, but I must say its less than crystal clear that its not a blind post that doesnt tie in.

McScribe · Jan 13, 2011

Fair enough, I need to go back to bed for a little bit to get rid of this headache, then I'll come up with something brilliant that would stump Socrates to the point of "I got nothin'".

Conservativation · Jan 13, 2011

Pure sophistry

Created2Write · Jan 13, 2011

Conservativation said:
If I steal because Im hungry, is stealing a sin, or a symptom

No, the divorce Im talking about is sin. Sin is sin is sin, not to bog down in divorce here. There are not mitigating circumstances making one sin less because its a symptom or whatever rationale.
Divorce without Biblical cause is sin, its as simple as that and it shouldnt be hard to say or accept. Until they do, the rest is window dressing as a witness.

This bears repeating.

McScribe · Jan 13, 2011

mkgal1 said:
One of the most difficult situations to be in...IMO...is to be faced with sin around us, especially in our marriages, and not know how to deal with it.

We are to HATE sin as God HATES sin, but that is such a difficult balancing act between hating sin & loving the sinner.

Dr. David Clarke, PhD has an excellent article (I believe) that discusses this, titled, Bring Your Marriage Back from the Dead

This is the op's main question btw which I am referring to in my previous post. (not the one about Socrates) The heart of the matter is the question here as Mkgal1 posted it as I bolded it above.

mkgal1 · Jan 13, 2011

McScribe said:
This is the op's main question btw which I am referring to in my previous post. (not the one about Socrates) The heart of the matter is the question here as Mkgal1 posted it as I bolded it above.

Thanks for pullling forward that question from the OP.

I agree that PART of the solution is to look to God...mostly for wisdom and strength in dealing with the offense (and to gain clarity to make sure we are examining and recognizing any beams in our own eyes). But, we are to both deal with our vertical relationship with God....AND, our horizontal relationships with others (especially our spouses)...we cannot "ditch" one and rely ONLY on our relationship with God. We have a calling here on earth and a responsibility to deal with these relationships.

I brought up Luke 17 in the other thread...and reading more about it today...I feel it is the most applicable passage that I have found so far.

I found a great commentary on the verses, here it is:

David Guzik said:
If your brother sins against you, rebuke him: When someone sins against you, you should not pretend that it never happened. You need to rebuke that brother in love.

i. Love is the rule here; we obviously can’t walk around keep a record of every little offense committed against us. One aspect of the fruit of the Spirit is longsuffering (Galatians 5:22), and we need to be able to suffer long with the slights and petty offences that come our way in daily living. Ephesians 4:2 says that we should love with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love. Don’t be too sensitive; bear with one another.

ii. But in love, when we are sinned against in a significant way, we must follow Ephesians 4:15 as the pattern: we need to speak the truth in love. Love isn’t going to other people about it; love isn’t bottling it up inside of you. Love is getting it straight with the person who sinned against you.

b. Jesus challenges us: if he repents, forgive him. There is no option. When the person who offended you repents, you must forgive them.

i. What do we do with the person who has never repented? Do we forgive them? In a sense, we can not forgive them without doing violence to the whole idea of what forgiveness is all about. God does not forgive us apart from repentance; and when we are forgiven, all relationship is restored with Him. Are we more forgiving than God is?

ii. Even if you can’t forgive someone because they won’t repent, you also can not harbor the pain and bitterness of the offense in your heart. You must do what Jesus did in Luke 23:34 when He prayed Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do - you must commit your heart to God in heaven, loving your enemy and praying for them.

iii. Joseph is another marvelous example of this. When he told his brothers who had hated him and sold him into slavery you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good (Genesis 50:20), he didn’t come to that realization at that moment. That was the state of his heart for a long time; but relationship could only really be restored after the brothers had repented and Joseph spoke healing, forgiving words to them - and backed it up with actions.

If you have faith as a mustard seed: We usually think of faith as being exercised with dramatic, miraculous works. That may be true, but the greatest miracles of faith have to do with the restoration of relationships.

i. The roots of the mulberry tree were thought to be extraordinarily strong; it was thought that this tree could stay rooted for six hundred years.

ii. You may have unforgiveness and bitterness that is deeply rooted within you; it may be like one of those trees that sends down deep, strong roots. But through faith, Jesus can rip those roots clean out; it can be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea.

Conservativation · Jan 13, 2011

So, are we applying the strategy gleaned from the addiction discussion to any marital sin? Its very important to know the answer to this.
I have to THINK it is headed that way, to be a widely applicable thing, and I know I and I suspect lots of people would start disagreeing if this was about a specifically relational matter, relational...the word....is by definition about 2 people, and this idea of one spouse standing against the others relational sin, and focus on it and not letting the topic be changed until they see that sin and all those things said about addiction, I just cannot agree there.

If mk or romans would please respond?

FaithPrevails · Jan 13, 2011

mkgal1 said:
Thanks for pullling forward that question from the OP.

I agree that PART of the solution is to look to God...mostly for wisdom and strength in dealing with the offense (and to gain clarity to make sure we are examining and recognizing any beams in our own eyes). But, we are to both deal with our vertical relationship with God....AND, our horizontal relationships with others (especially our spouses)...we cannot "ditch" one and rely ONLY on our relationship with God. We have a calling here on earth and a responsibility to deal with these relationships.

We do have a responsibility to our relationships and how we deal with them. What we can't possibly be responsible for, though, is how those we are in relationship with react/respond. Agreed?

mkgal1 · Jan 13, 2011

Yep. Agreed.

mkgal1 · Jan 13, 2011

Another commentary on the topic

Bible.org said:
The second sin of the Bible involved one person refusing to take any responsibility for the well-being of another. You remember the story of Cain and Abel, his brother, from Genesis chapter 4, where Cain sought to defend himself by responding to God, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” (Genesis 4:9).

We can see, then, not only from experience, but more importantly from Scripture, that sin is not just a “solo” experience. In Luke chapter 17 Jesus spoke about sin as an interpersonal matter, rather than merely as an individual matter. The first two verses are a warning concerning the seriousness of influencing others in such a way as to encourage them to sin. In terms of the first sin in Genesis chapter 3, Jesus spoke words, which if obeyed, would keep us from being “Eve’s” to the “Adam’s” of this world. The last two verses deal with the positive role which they can play in the life of one who has sinned. Again, in Genesis chapter 4 terms, Jesus told us how it is we are to be our “brother’s keeper” when he does sin. The unifying element in these verses is “sin” and the overriding emphasis is that the disciples of our Lord should (1) take sin seriously, and (2) take sin personally.

Conservativation · Jan 13, 2011

Is anyone disagreeing with that?

Is that not sort of preaching to the choir?

FaithPrevails · Jan 14, 2011

I think this statement from my devotional today marries (no pun intended) the two sides of the issue together well.

One day Christ will return and make everything right. Until then, believers are called to be His ambassadors of peace. However, becoming a Christian does not automatically change us into people who pursue kindness and unity.

At times we're quick-tempered and impatient and find it hard to live in harmony with others. We may have trouble letting go of attitudes or habits that hurt those around us--and occasionally we don't even want to. God knows our true character and has provided the Holy Spirit to transform us into Jesus' likeness. The Spirit opens our minds to understand and apply Scripture. He gives us the power to say no to ungodliness and to replace me-centered thinking with a Christ-centered viewpoint. He patiently produces His fruit in us, which includes love, joy, and peace (Gal. 5:22-23). With His help, we can become peacemakers who work to bring about reconciliation between God and others (Matt. 5:9).

The underlined part speaks to the person struggling in sin. The bolded part, I believe can speak to either the person living in sin OR their spouse.

When a person has been hurt repeatedly/consistently by their spouse in the same manner - or even in different ways - the automatic response becomes almost knee-jerk. That's the viscious cycle I have referred to previously.

So, we do need to make sure we are confronting and addressing the sin. However, at the same time, we need to make sure we are measuring our reaction when the sin rears its ugly head again. A common reaction is to focus on how the sin affects the person being sinned against. The person will start to "spin in" on their feelings and what they want/need to be different and how it affects their life, etc. This takes the focus way off the sin and puts it into a totally different area. It also colors how a person responds to the hurt.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. If the way we have been confronting the sin isn't working, then we need to change the way we confront the sin. At the same time, we need to understand whether the person sinning against us truly wants to repent and change their ways or if they are simply telling us what we want to hear and don't really desire to affect change in their lives.

I'm well known for telling someone that apologizes to me for the same offense over and over, "Don't tell me you're sorry anymore. Show me you're sorry by changing the behavior." Actions do speak louder than words.

mkgal1 · Jan 15, 2011

Faith Prevails--quote from devotional said:
Until then, believers are called to be His ambassadors of peace

I realize this was not the point of your post....but, I just can't get past that statement....I have an aversion to the belief that our mission is to be "ambassadors of peace".

Jesus did NOT come to earth to bring peace. Matthew 10:34 tells us HE came to be a sword...dividing truth from lies, and those who follow after HIM...from those who are against HIM.

As "ambassadors for Christ" (2nd Corinthians 5)...our mission is to be one of reconciliation with God....but, that doesn't always mean there will be "peace".

My aversion comes from the fact that the Antichrist is going to gain followers (and worshippers) by promising "peace". Being in pursuit of that (peace), is going to lead many astray.

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