Grace and Forgiveness

Travelers.Soul · Dec 13, 2015

TX_Matt said:
Right, and the thing is that often times people have a hard time making a distinction between the person and what they are doing. It's sort of the logic behind "love the sinner and hate the sin", we don't need to rebuke the person, we need to rebuke the sin, but often times people have a hard time making the distinction. It's typically the more, for lack of a better term, disgusted, by the action, the harder it is we have a time making the distinction the person is not a sum of the action. The psychology of disgust is an incredibly powerful thing, it needed to be when we relied on hunting and gathering for food, and was never meant to apply towards people, but it does. That's why it's so important we make it about the action and not the person, no matter how difficult it may be, no one is ever perfect in that.

How do you rebuke the sin but not the sinner? It's not possible. When you are rebuking an action or a sin you are also rebuking the person. In fact, when Scripture speaks of rebuking it is in reference to a person not just their actions (Matt 18 for example). You cannot separate a person from their actions for a person's actions come from who they are. A person's words come from their heart. No one would try to separate a person from a kindness that they do to another.

High Fidelity · Dec 13, 2015

TX_Matt said:
Right, and the thing is that often times people have a hard time making a distinction between the person and what they are doing. It's sort of the logic behind "love the sinner and hate the sin", we don't need to rebuke the person, we need to rebuke the sin, but often times people have a hard time making the distinction. It's typically the more, for lack of a better term, disgusted, by the action, the harder it is we have a time making the distinction the person is not a sum of the action. The psychology of disgust is an incredibly powerful thing, it needed to be when we relied on hunting and gathering for food, and was never meant to apply towards people, but it does. That's why it's so important we make it about the action and not the person, no matter how difficult it may be, no one is ever perfect in that.

Hate the sin, love the sinner, sure, but what is a sinner if not the perpetrator of sin? We rebuke the sinner.

LoveDivine · Dec 13, 2015

TX_Matt said:
I wanted to address this as it's been brought up several times in this thread now.

I've been accused to this numerous times on this site, and the truth of the matter is that the reason I have come to my views is because of how seriously I take scripture. After everything I learned in college, I could no longer see scripture as just merely a textbook of laws and facts, but a story about God and His people written in a completely different language, culture, and time. I take sin so seriously that I always look at the context of what Jesus, Paul, the others are saying. When I did that, I discovered that love is what guides the law*, and that God truly does desire mercy over sacrifice. I realized that the principles of the law are more important than the letter of the law*, and actually hold people to a higher standard. There is nothing easy about that, there is nothing comprising about that, if anything, it separates us more from the world because are truly following a higher standard than simply a different one. Furthermore, I also noticed in scripture that God seems so much more concerned about sins between people than personal sin, because that goes back to what Jesus and Paul write about how the entire law* can be summed up with the single command "Love your neighbor as yourself." Jesus' harshest words for those who took advantage, abused, or in anyway misread other people and not for those simply living in personal sin.

*I am not not talking about Levitical law, but simply just the commands of scripture.

I have always believed as well that Christ taught that the heart and intentions of a person are far more damning than their outward actions. That is not to say that our outward sins are not serious. I think Christ was after something higher than just outward obedience. So yes, love for Christ and our fellow men is of utmost importance. That being said, I do think that if we love Christ from the heart that we will also keep his commandments. We as Christians will fulfill the letter and spirit of the law (apart from moments of weakness when we transgress). I think it's good that you try to research the context and background of various passages in Scripture. I think there are many verses in Scripture that are best understood after doing some background research (similar to what we referenced in your church and culture thread). I do think that we must all be very cautious and careful though that we do not allow our modern day mindset or values to influence our thought process during these times of research. In the end, some of Christ's teachings concerning sin are so specific and black and white that they do not leave much room for interpretation.

A greater Hope · Dec 13, 2015

May Gods grace mercy and love abide with us all,especially me,
Shalom.

sundewgrower · Dec 13, 2015

I have a friend I used to sort of look above on some things since her past wasn't ideal.
However God drew me down to her past level briefly, and then I understood it better.
I've now understood everyone is capable of making mistakes, and going down the wrong paths.
I'm everyone's equal, and really I'm only a few bad choices shy of somebody who others might deem a less than ideal person.
Asking for forgiveness I think is crucial to move on though. I failed a friend, and I was forgiven for it.
She said she wants me to do the same for her, and I see it as a form of maturity. Of course if it's repeated than it's best to part company, or elevate the concern for it.

Yet, if you're judgmental, and at all think of yourself a smidgen better than others odds are God will set you into your place. Some people have crossed me badly, and so I avoid them since I do think they're not great Christians to be brutally honest. One I cared for very deeply, and I'm hurt months later. Sometimes I see you must forgive, forget, and part company before it sours.

I do see some people are arrogant, and never shoulder any fault for things.
They think they're a higher level of faith, and maturity yet since they've not been stratified for a while that's why they're inflated. Not that I wish those kind of people to be cut down, but it's hard since they can't be reasoned, bargained, or otherwise made amends with unless you apologize when they should meet you half way. I feel sometimes if you can't make any progress it's best to cut out, and leave them be. You can't change them, your time has passed with them, and you better ride off into the sunset than try to fix something that's just going to bite you back.

Forgive, forget, and move on. But getting rid of the hard feelings isn't easy, and so I'm still finding it difficult to get rid of them all for two people thus far.

SnowyMacie · Dec 13, 2015

dreaminofireland said:
How do you rebuke the sin but not the sinner? It's not possible. When you are rebuking an action or a sin you are also rebuking the person. In fact, when Scripture speaks of rebuking it is in reference to a person not just their actions (Matt 18 for example). You cannot separate a person from their actions for a person's actions come from who they are. A person's words come from their heart. No one would try to separate a person from a kindness that they do to another.

First off, you should worry about your own sin first. Secondly, it is possible, Jesus did it all the time, and people do it all the time without realizing it, it's simply a matter of how they perceive the action in their mind. For example, when is the last time you saw a friend get mad and say something they shouldn't say at someone and just wrote it off as them being "tired", or something. You may something rebuking them and think they should get help possibly if it's bad enough, but you can separate that part of them much easier than John Smith down the street.

What I was also talking about in my post are people who have a hard time really understanding when and how people struggle with different issues. Sin is sin yes, but we should treat the one who sees it as a struggle and trying to break free but can't differently, than those who are truly proud of it, and those who for some reason or another are not simply aware they are sinning. The man, who in a momentary lapse of judgement, cheats on his wife and feels terribly guilty about it is different than the one who has been in an affair for half the marriage with more than one woman and almost everyone except the wife knows. The starving man who steals bread to feed his family is different than the boss who legally steals from his employees. We can argue all day about "sin is sin" and whether or not God just arbitarily applying rules with no regard to intent or the situation, but that's regardless the point I'm getting at is that rebuking is not always the best course of action.

There are also situations in which one should never rebuke another for their sins. If you are struggling with gossip for example, especially if you are completely unrepentant of that, you have absolutely no room to call out the rumor that was spread about you. That's exactly what Jesus was speaking about when he says "Worry about the plank in your own eye." Secondly, we should also remember that grace and forgiveness should be apart of whatever the situation looks like. Saying something like "You are terrible for doing this and are going Hell unless you stop!", is not rebuking, that's simply just condemnation, and the gospel is not about condemnation. Rebuking needs to include grace and forgiveness, or it's simply just calling people out for the sake of calling them out. That's also usually when the issues arise over the subject of rebuking.

Goodbook · Dec 13, 2015

Patrick Bateman said:
Indeed but honestly if they do lose it then it wasn't too much to begin with and living in the flesh and unrepentant sin isn't saving faith anyway. I think some people need to ask themselves those critical questions because it establishes the foundations of their faith; if it's built on sand then they need to address that.

Being seasoned with grace requires a repentant attitude towards faith which a good deal of the people we're discussing don't have. A lot of them see no wrongdoing and don't seek repentance so they can't be seasoned by grace if they don't seek it.

It is in large part why I am evangelical -- because many Christians are perfect examples of needing to be born again.

You can't actually be a christian unless you are born again. Unless you repent and are born again you cannot see the kingdom. So...I would say those that don't have faith are maybe still learning what this actually means, and we are to be patient with them.

I don't know who you are talking about but I don't really know anybody like this. I know churchgoers who aren't actually christians. But they are churchgoers. I would not call these people christians even though they may hang out and do churchy things with other christians. If someone is like this and they do something like commit adultery or steal or gossip maliciously they are false brethren, and hurt the body of christ with their actions that are not christlike it is best not to associate with them. If they do not repent.

Goodbook · Dec 13, 2015

I understand what you mean patrick but I wasn't trying to disagree with you. I just mean that..they need to hear the gospel again if they never had saving faith to begin with. They might have heard a watered down version of the gospel.

LoveDivine · Dec 13, 2015

Goodbook said:
I understand what you mean patrick but I wasn't trying to disagree with you. I just mean that..they need to hear the gospel again if they never had saving faith to begin with. They might have heard a watered down version of the gospel.

Good point. I think that many people have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel accurately. It is really sad that there are very few churches that make discipleship a priority. I think there are some sincere converts that flounder needlessly in their faith because of a lack of sound teaching. I think an aspect of extending grace towards others is remaining patient with those who are ignorant of certain spiritual truths. With time, many of these people may be enlightened and grow in their commitment to Christ as they become aware of proper doctrine and Christian principles.

Somber · Dec 14, 2015

Unforgiveness can run so deep that it can extend towards ourselves. I feel so bad when I see this in other people, I wish I could gently shake them out of it. I think that when I was going through such a bad point in my life last year, I was also struggling with unforgiveness and I didn't realize this. I don't think we always realize we are bitter towards ourselves, sometimes this bitterness can hurt others too, because it is a poison that leaks out and can harm another in the process, even if it isn't directed at them. I think that this always coincides with a need to justify ourselves, since many may feel justified in hating their own person, because it isn't directed at anyone else, but this isn't true. If we are God's, our body should not be our own, to treat it as we please, or to say and do with it what we want to. Forgiveness is the only way to heal, it is what will renew and restore peace and joy in God in our hearts, and it takes away the veil of separation and blindness.

This article really hits home to me on this and I think it talks a lot about what I have been thinking in relation to forgiveness and unforgiveness: http://www.joycemeyer.org/articles/ea.aspx?article=the_poison_of_unforgiveness

William67 · Dec 14, 2015

YankeeGirl said:
Something that has been on my mind recently is how easy it is for us as Christians to forget our own sins and past and harshly critique the lives of others. You can often see evidence of that mindset on sites like this forum. When I say "critique" I am not referring to those who hold to the Biblical view of sin and seek to uphold a high standard. That is commendable and should be the focus of every Christian. I do believe there is a delicate balance between upholding this standard graciously and condemning others. I think it is so easy for Christians to view or categorize themselves and other professing Christians into two groups: those with a past and those who have always been faithful. I think this is where many Christians err. I think the more a person contemplates his own life and sinfulness, the greater appreciation he should have for Christ and the more grace and compassion he should exude towards his fellow Christians. I think one of the greatest examples of this point is contained in Luke 7.

The story of the sinful woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears and dried them with her hair. What I have always found so touching about this story was the woman's total lack of regard for her own personal dignity and her obvious love for Christ. She had lived a very outwardly sinful life as was evidenced by the Pharisees comments concerning her display of devotion. "This man if he were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner." Clearly, they did not consider themselves to be sinners in the same regard that she was. She was a sinner. They, in their own opinion, were devout Jews who had carefully followed the law of Moses. I think they based this view on the fact that they had lived an outwardly moral life and had followed the teachings of Moses. Yet, they didn't have the idea or desire to show that level of devotion to Christ. I think Christ's answer to them was also intriguing. "Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

I think an important thought to take from this is that every Christian should be aware of just how much they are in need of grace and their own level of sinfulness. I don't think Christ actually believed that anyone was forgiven of little, but he answered the Pharisees according to what he knew they believed of themselves. I think it is easy to extend this level of grace and forgiveness towards others when we have the right concept of our own need of grace.

Can you give us an example of someone judging another?

SnowyMacie · Dec 14, 2015

Quieted said:
Unforgiveness can run so deep that it can extend towards ourselves. I feel so bad when I see this in other people, I wish I could gently shake them out of it. I think that when I was going through such a bad point in my life last year, I was also struggling with unforgiveness and I didn't realize this. I don't think we always realize we are bitter towards ourselves, sometimes this bitterness can hurt others too, because it is a poison that leaks out and can harm another in the process, even if it isn't directed at them. I think that this always coincides with a need to justify ourselves, since many may feel justified in hating their own person, because it isn't directed at anyone else, but this isn't true. If we are God's, our body should not be our own, to treat it as we please, or to say and do with it what we want to. Forgiveness is the only way to heal, it is what will renew and restore peace and joy in God in our hearts, and it takes away the veil of separation and blindness.

This article really hits home to me on this and I think it talks a lot about what I have been thinking in relation to forgiveness and unforgiveness: http://www.joycemeyer.org/articles/ea.aspx?article=the_poison_of_unforgiveness

That article title reminds me of a great quote "Holding a grudge is like drinking a poison and expecting the other person to die."

LoveDivine · Dec 14, 2015

William67 said:
Can you give us an example of someone judging another?

Sure. I prefer to use an example from my own life though. I don't want to detract from the positive and good discussion in this thread. I grew up in a very devout Christian home. (My father was a minister and my parents both took their Christian faith very seriously). I was really fortunate to have that solid Christian upbringing and was exposed to solid Christian teaching at an early age. There is no denying that those who grow up in that type of environment have a huge advantage. I do recall that at times, I had the tendency to think a bit more highly of myself in comparison to other young people I knew. I remember on one particular occasion (I was probably about 12 or 13) being strongly corrected for that attitude. To clarify, it wasn't that I was inventing the negative behavior of some of the other younger people I was comparing myself to. They actually were pretty bad, lol. The issue was that I had too high of an opinion of myself. I am thankful that I was not allowed to continue in this mindset unchecked. As I went through various seasons of having to reflect on my own sinfulness, I was able to better comprehend just how much in need of grace I was (and everyone in general). One verse that I feel is very applicable to my own life is Luke 12:48. "To whom much is given much is required." In many ways, that is both an exciting and frightening concept. I think that the more a person spends time in personal reflection and introspection, the more rich and sweet their faith in Christ becomes. It is truly wonderful to ponder how much grace God extends to us in spite of our own sinfulness.

William67 · Dec 14, 2015

YankeeGirl said:
Sure. I prefer to use an example from my own life though. I don't want to detract from the positive and good discussion in this thread. I grew up in a very devout Christian home. (My father was a minister and my parents both took their Christian faith very seriously). I was really fortunate to have that solid Christian upbringing and was exposed to solid Christian teaching at an early age. There is no denying that those who grow up in that type of environment have a huge advantage. I do recall that at times, I had the tendency to think a bit more highly of myself in comparison to other young people I knew. I remember on one particular occasion (I was probably about 12 or 13) being strongly corrected for that attitude. To clarify, it wasn't that I was inventing the negative behavior of some of the other younger people I was comparing myself to. They actually were pretty bad, lol. The issue was that I had too high of an opinion of myself. I am thankful that I was not allowed to continue in this mindset unchecked. As I went through various seasons of having to reflect on my own sinfulness, I was able to better comprehend just how much in need of grace I was (and everyone in general). One verse that I feel is very applicable to my own life is Luke 12:48. "To whom much is given much is required." In many ways, that is both an exciting and frightening concept. I think that the more a person spends time in personal reflection and introspection, the more rich and sweet their faith in Christ becomes. It is truly wonderful to ponder how much grace God extends to us in spite of our own sinfulness.

Ah, ok. I'm a bit touchy when people bring up judging. Ive seen it used far too many times to try and shame or guilt people into accepting sin. Ive had people try and use that against me on here.

Goodbook · Dec 14, 2015

Well we are to esteem others better than ourselves. i think its an easy trap to fall into, lack of humility. We cant puff ourselves up just cos we saved and christians.
We have blessed assurance, but that doesnt mean we can act smug towards those that dont have faith.

I imagine it must be hard going for preachers sons and daughters even though they are blessed to be raised in a christian environment. But God has given us all free will to choose Him. Even though he loves us first, we still have a choice ourselves whether to follow Him or not.

SnowyMacie · Dec 14, 2015

YankeeGirl said:
Sure. I prefer to use an example from my own life though. I don't want to detract from the positive and good discussion in this thread. I grew up in a very devout Christian home. (My father was a minister and my parents both took their Christian faith very seriously). I was really fortunate to have that solid Christian upbringing and was exposed to solid Christian teaching at an early age. There is no denying that those who grow up in that type of environment have a huge advantage. I do recall that at times, I had the tendency to think a bit more highly of myself in comparison to other young people I knew. I remember on one particular occasion (I was probably about 12 or 13) being strongly corrected for that attitude. To clarify, it wasn't that I was inventing the negative behavior of some of the other younger people I was comparing myself to. They actually were pretty bad, lol. The issue was that I had too high of an opinion of myself. I am thankful that I was not allowed to continue in this mindset unchecked. As I went through various seasons of having to reflect on my own sinfulness, I was able to better comprehend just how much in need of grace I was (and everyone in general). One verse that I feel is very applicable to my own life is Luke 12:48. "To whom much is given much is required." In many ways, that is both an exciting and frightening concept. I think that the more a person spends time in personal reflection and introspection, the more rich and sweet their faith in Christ becomes. It is truly wonderful to ponder how much grace God extends to us in spite of our own sinfulness.

I sort of had the same mentality as a teenager at times with other teenagers my age.

William67 said:
Ah, ok. I'm a bit touchy when people bring up judging. Ive seen it used far too many times to try and shame or guilt people into accepting sin. Ive had people try and use that against me on here.

The way I sort of look at is judging is when you're making assumptions on things you do not know about, you are filling in the gaps on what you do not know.

William67 · Dec 14, 2015

TX_Matt said:
I sort of had the same mentality as a teenager at times with other teenagers my age.

The way I sort of look at is judging is when you're making assumptions on things you do not know about, you are filling in the gaps on what you do not know.

I happen to agree, but I also know that if you follow scripture, you aren't judging. I'm not going to derail YG's thread by posting what I'm talking about. Blackribbon and I have debated that to death. I will just say that people need to learn the difference between discernment and judgement.

Gnarwhal · Dec 14, 2015

YankeeGirl said:
Sure. I prefer to use an example from my own life though. I don't want to detract from the positive and good discussion in this thread. I grew up in a very devout Christian home. (My father was a minister and my parents both took their Christian faith very seriously). I was really fortunate to have that solid Christian upbringing and was exposed to solid Christian teaching at an early age. There is no denying that those who grow up in that type of environment have a huge advantage. I do recall that at times, I had the tendency to think a bit more highly of myself in comparison to other young people I knew. I remember on one particular occasion (I was probably about 12 or 13) being strongly corrected for that attitude. To clarify, it wasn't that I was inventing the negative behavior of some of the other younger people I was comparing myself to. They actually were pretty bad, lol. The issue was that I had too high of an opinion of myself. I am thankful that I was not allowed to continue in this mindset unchecked. As I went through various seasons of having to reflect on my own sinfulness, I was able to better comprehend just how much in need of grace I was (and everyone in general). One verse that I feel is very applicable to my own life is Luke 12:48. "To whom much is given much is required." In many ways, that is both an exciting and frightening concept. I think that the more a person spends time in personal reflection and introspection, the more rich and sweet their faith in Christ becomes. It is truly wonderful to ponder how much grace God extends to us in spite of our own sinfulness.

I think we've all done this at some point or another, especially those of us who were raised in Christian homes. For example, I think high school age can be an odd time for Christians raised in the faith, obviously they've been Christians for a while but they're still not emotionally mature enough to treat others appropriately and sometimes they can act superior. In my experience they usually grow out of it though.

However, some people don't. Some people learn early on in their faith to fixate on the sin of others and that becomes a crutch for them. Without it, it would seem there wouldn't be much left of their faith. One can operate with grace towards others without tolerating sin, sadly there are some who don't see how that can be.

CCHIPSS · Dec 14, 2015

I found those that are jealous often have a hard time forgiving the sin of others. They are jealous that the "sinners" got away with more sins than they themselves did. And then Jesus tells them to forgive the sinners. So on the surface this isn't "fair".

It is harder to love a sinless person, or love a sinner? I think the answer is obvious: the sinner, sinning every day, is much harder to love.

Jesus talked about this in Luke 15:31-32. God will not forget our righteous and obedience. However God loves the sinner also and forgave them. And if we want to be in the same mind set as God, we too should love the sinner.

And this is how we will get treasures in heaven. Not that we earn these treasures. But if we learn to love like God, he will place us in authority in heaven. He knows we will love those he places under us.

LoveDivine · Dec 14, 2015

There have been several really great responses to this thread. One final thought on this topic. I do agree that there is a difference between discernment and judgment. I want to clarify that this thread was not intended to diminish the importance of holding to sound doctrine and respecting Christ's teachings on sin. It was my desire to use this thread as a way to stimulate personal reflection and discussion on how we can uphold these beliefs while showing compassion and love to those around us. As Darth mentioned in his post, it is possible to operate with grace towards others without tolerating sin.

I think that it is human nature to compare ourselves to those around us. It is easy to think we are morally decent or very spiritual if we focus on how we measure up to others. There will always be a person or group of people with more failings or struggles than we are experiencing. If we focus on others instead of God's standard, we can become deceived. Also, CCHIPSS brought out a good point that many are jealous that others can sin "more" and still be forgiven. I have often thought about this mindset. I think that some Christians serve God out of duty and obligation instead of love. They often show resentment towards others who have not made the same "sacrifices" or abstained from immorality or other secular pursuits. This resentment is very similar to the feelings of the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son. I sometimes wonder if it is because of this mindset that many Christians refuse to accept newer Christians (from a more openly sinful background) as their equals. And to clarify, I'm not referring to personal preferences a single person may have for a spouse. I am referring to a general attitude of disgust or superiority towards those who have lived a more openly sinful life.

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