Gospel of Christ Not Possible in TE Doctrine?

Assyrian · Dec 22, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
"Stories" denigrates the Word of God. Gen 1 & 2 are accurate accounts of the one Creation and in no way make two "stories"

2Chron 24:27 Accounts of his sons and of the many oracles against him and of the rebuilding of the house of God are written in the Story of the Book of the Kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his place. Don't knock stories. Jesus told stories all the time.

But if you see the Genesis stories as accurate historical accounts then you have the problem that the two accounts give completely different orders of creation.

quote yeshuasavedme: Only Jesus' New Man body was not subject to corruption when He willingly gave His life for our redemption and departed His Glorious body and remained absent from it for three days and three nights [72 hours]; because "the prince of this world had nothing in Him" and so His body was not subject to corruption.

[/color][/b]Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Scripture does indeed say His body of second Man creation was not subject to death and corruption. -And if He had not "taken it back up" it would never, ever, evwer, have decayed, for Satan "possessed nothing in Himf [in His flesh]", which death and corruption do have in "all" Adamkind. The Adam body is called "the body of death".
Jhn 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me [has no legal right to my body].

He had Life to give for us because He was not a mortal human being until He willingly and freely gave His Life as our Ransom. If He had any corruption in His flesh or taint of mortality, then we are dead in our sins, because the Atonement was not Acceptable and final.
He tasted our mortality only when He had our sins and iniquities laid on His soul by the Father [Isaiah 53].

You are falling into the trap Glaudys warned you against there ysm, you are mixing up the literal meaning of perishable, the simple fact that our bodies die and decay, with the metaphorical meaning, decay as a picture of moral corruption. Physical decay was simply the way God made our bodies. There is no moral aspect to it at all, unless you think there is something evil about a dead mouse or that ham left too long in the back of your fridge. Satan would only have had a hold on Jesus if there was moral corruption in his life, if he had sinned. But he never did. But this says nothing about his body being physically perishable.

yeshuasavedme said:
He was made to ascend to and sit upon the throne of Glory in the heavenlies, when the Royal assemblies were called. He would have, too, if he had passed the test. He would have always represented his seed there. He died in the fall and never ascended to that throne.
You can read about that throne in Enoch, which the Son of Man will sit upon and rule the kingdom from.
Satan wanted that throne. He had a certain "light bearer" all "pumped up" to believe that he could take it, too [Isa 14:13-14 ; and possibly the same Cherub as Eze 28:13-15:].
But Jesus ransomed the earth and got the right to it, though, as the "Son of Man".

We who are redeemed are waiting for the call for our time of assembly in the heavenlies, when we will be gathered to Him at the time of the "laqach"/rapture of us, to be with Him where He is, and we will be rewarded with thrones of glory to sit upon, by Him. -the theme of redemption "back", is "for the Glory".

You are talking about a hypothetical role Adam was never given, and God knew Adam would never be given this without the human race being redeemed first. As Adam was never given it, never promised it, so he never lost it when he fell. He only really lost what he really had. Your theology of the gospel is built around a hypothetical blessing scripture never says Adam had, and never says he lost, yet you think people who do not see it the way you do are denying the gospel. Your hypothetical picture is fine in itself, if it gives you a deeper appreciation of what Christ achieved, go for it, but do not think that other people who do not share your speculative theology are denying the gospel.

Adam is the name of our kind, and the head of our kind was promised the redemption by the Seed of the Woman in the same day that he fell and was cast out of the Garden -and we fell in him, because we were the seed in his loins who were already written in the Book of Life, to come into our being in "Adam". as "sons of God" -of the human kind.

All that was promised was a seed of Eve who would step on the snake's head. The rest is allegorical interpretation, good allegorical interpretation, but still allegory. And given Jesus never stepped on a literal snake, and as you realise yourself, Adam is the name God gave the human race, given that the second creation story gives a completely different chronology to the first, I would see the whole story of Adam and Eve as an allegory of the creation of mankind and our fall. But there is no particular rule in scripture that we must understand allegory one particular way or we deny the Gospel. Allegories are helpful pictures, but they are not fundamental to the gospel or salvation.

But that idea about us falling in Adam because we were seeds in his loins is Augustine, not scripture.

And Paul read Enoch and made many comments in his writings based on what he read in Enoch; just as Jesus, John, Peter, and the womb brothers of Jesus, Jude and James, did. Paul is making his remarks only because of the revelations given to Enoch. -Paul writes of not one thing that is not already written before him, in Enoch, in Jasher, and in Moses [the Law] and the prophets.

Paul was highly educated in all the Jewish theology of the time.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 22, 2008

gluadys said:
Whether they are living souls or not, I couldn't say, but they are living organisms and they die. And many generations of them died before the creation of humanity.

.

I know you can't, but only because you don't believe God. The Creator can and did say what a living soul is, and I posted His Word which defines them.

Not knowing what a living soul is defined as, by the Creator's clear Word, then you go on to believe -as absolute truth- contradictions to that Word which are written by men. -How foolish is that; to trade unbelief in the Word of God for belief in fallible, unknowing, unwise men?
God created all the kinds that multiply, and He told the kinds to multiply and to fill the earth. To fill the earth by multiplying its kind for its purpose of creation became impossible when corruption/decay came on all creation, at the fall of the Adamhead. All creatures have been subjected to vanity and emptiness of purpose from that time of the fall of our "Adamhead" [whose fall dwells in us who are multiplied in the kind], For that reason;
Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

The spirit/force of every created kind answers to God the Word, who created them for specific purposes.
Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we [are]?

Mat 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
Mat 8:27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

Psa 89:8 O LORD God of hosts, who [is] a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? Psa 89:9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.

Psa 148:8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev 4:7 And the first beast [was] like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast [was] like a flying eagle.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption/decay into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Rev 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

gluadys · Dec 22, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
I know you can't, but only because you don't believe God.

As I have pointed out before, you have no idea what I believe.

Since you have a very unique idea of the meaning of "soul", I have no reason to accept what you say it is, in the face of a great many other ideas all held by believing Christians.

Psa 148:8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

I don't know if you expect a deluge of scripture to mean anything, but I get nothing from it. e.g. why do you cite this verse in the context of the meaning of "soul"?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 22, 2008

gluadys said:
As I have pointed out before, you have no idea what I believe.
"For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.".
You have not kept your beliefs on the subject matter of origins "hidden" in your heart, but have openly displayed them on this board; so I do know what you believe as relates to what your heart speaks on these things on this board; and those things which come of your own heart on this board deny the Words of God and elevate the false doctrines of men who deny the Words of God.

gluadys said:

Since you have a very unique idea of the meaning of "soul", I have no reason to accept what you say it is, in the face of a great many other ideas all held by believing Christians.
I do not ask that you accept anything I say. I refute your idle words against the revelation of the Holy Spirit which He gave us through the prophets from the beginning, by His inspiring them with the Words of God to write for us. God's definition of soul is "all in which is the breath of life". You claim you don't know what a soul is. God tells us.

gluadys said:

I don't know if you expect a deluge of scripture to mean anything, but I get nothing from it. e.g. why do you cite this verse in the context of the meaning of "soul"?

Click to expand...

In context, that is one of the verses that makes my point that all created forces are subject to the Creator; and all created forces are "spirits" -individual created kinds. All creation -every created force/spirit/kind- will give praise to Jesus Christ for His redemption of them by His blood which was poured out on the cursed ground in front of the Mercy Seat, to fulfill the Law of Atonement for the ground and all that comes of it. Every created thing in heaven and in earth was made for His purposes, and every created thing's purpose "for being" which was given to Adam as his dominion in the beginning, was turned to emptiness and vanity at the fall of the Adamhead: that is what you deny.
The purpose for the kinds that were commanded to multiply was they would multiply and fill the earth. Since the fall, they are subject to decay and corruption and cannot multiply to fill the earth for their intended purpose. at the beginning of his creation!.

The spirit/force of every created kind in heaven and in earth answers to God the Word, who created them for specific purposes. Psa 148:8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word:
Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we [are]?

He speaks to all "spirits" of all created forces, and the purpose for all creation is now empty, since the fall.
Heaven itself is not established as it was intended to be, with "Adam Son of God"; but will be established in the regeneration of the heavens and the earth, by the name of the New Man, who is YHWH come in flesh; whose name for that establishment of the heavens is "Israel", not "Adam".

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may establish the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou [art] my people.

You deny the fall of all creation. You deny the creation totally, and have a fairy tale belief of evolution which is made up by unbelieving men.
The Scriptures I listed are just some which should give you pause to reflect on His Word and to go search these things out in the Word, to see if they be so, for yourself.
At any rate; others reading these posts may not fall for the same lies of unbelief that you have, and they may be encouraged to go to the Word for themselves, and to believe God.

Rev 5:13 And every created thing
which is in heaven,
and on the earth,
and under the earth,
and such as are in the sea,
and all that are in them, heard I saying,
Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Click to expand...

Mallon · Dec 22, 2008

That some of the newcomers to this forum claim to have both (a) infallible insight into God's original intended meaning of the Scriptures and (b) the ability to know a person's heart really amazes me. Almost as though they think they are God themselves. It's quite revealing, really.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 22, 2008

Assyrian said:
2Chron 24:27 Accounts of his sons and of the many oracles against him and of the rebuilding of the house of God are written in the Story of the Book of the Kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his place. Don't knock stories. Jesus told stories all the time.

But if you see the Genesis stories as accurate historical accounts then you have the problem that the two accounts give completely different orders of creation.

...

Paul was highly educated in all the Jewish theology of the time.

1Ki 14:19 And the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they [are] written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.
ספר cepher
2) missive, document, writing, book
a) missive
1) letter (of instruction), written order, commission, request, written decree
b) legal document, certificate of divorce, deed of purchase, indictment, sign
c) book, scroll
1) book of prophecies
2) genealogical register
3) law-book
4) book (of poems)
5) book (of kings)
6) books of the canon, scripture
7) record book (of God)

calling Genesis 1 and 2 different stories, gluadys has no intention of admitting that Genesis 1 and 2 are God's own inspired records, and that they are God's record of one event, with no contradictions. She intends to denigrate the record of Genesis to "false information fables"; given by a dumb god who can't say what He means, because dumb her god could not make a mind evolved enough to really understand that he never means what He says, and really means something entirely oppostie and different, until Darwin came along.

And Paul was a "Pharisee of Pharisees" to whom the seers and wise men's books were closed/shut up; and he did not believe the accounts he read in them until He had the revelation of Jesus Christ. Then his eyes were opened to hear with his ears, to see with his eyes, and understand with his heart, and be converted.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.

Paul expounded as a scribe on the writings of Enoch about Jesus Christ, the Son of Man who was with God and was God, and Paul preached with all the Apostles of God about Him, as "Wisdom; God in mystery hidden whom God ordained from eternity, for our glory". -The literal Greek rendering of 1 Cor 2:7 Paul preached that Wisdom from his own understanding of the revelation of the Son of Man in heaven, which revelation of the Son of Man in heaven was given to Enoch; and of whom Enoch wrote the doctrines of, for all the race of Adam to read, who would come after him.

gluadys · Dec 22, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
gluadys said:

As I have pointed out before, you have no idea what I believe.

Click to expand...

"For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.".
You have not kept your beliefs on the subject matter of origins "hidden" in your heart, but have openly displayed them on this board; so I do know what you believe as relates to what your heart speaks on these things on this board; and those things which come of your own heart on this board deny the Words of God and elevate the false doctrines of men who deny the Words of God.

No you don't. You have never actually asked what I believe or why I believe as I do. You have just pontificated that I don't believe because I do not accept some of your propositions as to what scripture says or means.

God's definition of soul is "all in which is the breath of life". You claim you don't know what a soul is. God tells us.

The only biblical definition I know of "soul" is Gen. 2:7 where, after forming the body of a man and breathing into it the breath of life, it says "and the man became a living soul". However, this does not work well with some of the NT references which seem to take a more Hellenistic view of the soul as something other than the body-spirit unity. For Jesus tells his disciples not to fear those who can only kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. And Paul speaks of the human person as a tri-partite entity when he prays for the Thessalonians that their "spirit and soul and body may be kept sound and blameless".

So I judge your definition to be too simplistic and not fully in accord with the use of the term "soul" in scripture.

In context, that is one of the verses that makes my point that all created forces are subject to the Creator; [snip rest]

So, in fact, it was not in reference to the meaning of "soul" at all. Why all the extraneous material? It is only distracting when trying to find what you are saying.

gluadys · Dec 22, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
calling Genesis 1 and 2 different stories, gluadys has no intention of admitting that Genesis 1 and 2 are God's own inspired records,

See, I knew you didn't know what I believed. In fact, I do believe indeed that the stories in both Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are inspired of God.

Just because you think the word "story" is derogatory doesn't mean I do. I have no intention whatsoever of denigrating the inspiration, authority or truth of scripture.

Assyrian · Dec 22, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
2Chron 24:27 Accounts of his sons and of the many oracles against him and of the rebuilding of the house of God are written in the Story of the Book of the Kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his place. Don't knock stories. Jesus told stories all the time.

Click to expand...

1Ki 14:19 And the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they [are] written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.
ספר cepher
2) missive, document, writing, book
a) missive
1) letter (of instruction), written order, commission, request, written decree
b) legal document, certificate of divorce, deed of purchase, indictment, sign
c) book, scroll
1) book of prophecies
2) genealogical register
3) law-book
4) book (of poems)
5) book (of kings)
6) books of the canon, scripture
7) record book (of God)

So because a completely different text is called 'the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel' ir cancels out the fact another text is called 'the Story of the Book of the Kings'? What sort of argument is that?

calling Genesis 1 and 2 different stories, gluadys has no intention of admitting that Genesis 1 and 2 are God's own inspired records, and that they are God's record of one event, with no contradictions. She intends to denigrate the record of Genesis to "false information fables"; given by a dumb god who can't say what He means, because dumb her god could not make a mind evolved enough to really understand that he never means what He says, and really means something entirely oppostie and different, until Darwin came along.

So when Jesus spoke in parables were they "false information fables; given by a dumb god who can't say what He means"? How can you write stuff like that? How can you possibly think that rant of yours is what Glaudys believes?

And Paul was a "Pharisee of Pharisees" to whom the seers and wise men's books were closed/shut up; and he did not believe the accounts he read in them until He had the revelation of Jesus Christ. Then his eyes were opened to hear with his ears, to see with his eyes, and understand with his heart, and be converted.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.

Paul expounded as a scribe on the writings of Enoch about Jesus Christ, the Son of Man who was with God and was God, and Paul preached with all the Apostles of God about Him, as "Wisdom; God in mystery hidden whom God ordained from eternity, for our glory". -The literal Greek rendering of 1 Cor 2:7 Paul preached that Wisdom from his own understanding of the revelation of the Son of Man in heaven, which revelation of the Son of Man in heaven was given to Enoch; and of whom Enoch wrote the doctrines of, for all the race of Adam to read, who would come after him.

Who was the revelation given to? Paul or Enoch?
1Cor 2:7 But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the wisdom that has been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this world has known. For had they known it, they wouldn't have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, "Things which an eye didn't see, and an ear didn't hear, which didn't enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him." 10 But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
Eph 3:3 how that by revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I wrote before in few words,

When was the mystery revealed? In Paul's time or when Enoch was written?
Eph 3:9 and to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;
Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden for ages and generations. But now it has been revealed to his saints,

If it was written by Enoch for all the races of Adam, why did Paul say it was hidden for ages in God?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 22, 2008

gluadys said:
The only biblical definition I know of "soul" is Gen. 2:7 where, after forming the body of a man and breathing into it the breath of life, it says "and the man became a living soul". ...

So I judge your definition to be too simplistic and not fully in accord with the use of the term "soul" in scripture.
...

You only do not know what Gods word says is a soul because you do not look to see what He says. If you cared what He said, you would check out His Word. But you dont; and so you prove that you do not know because you do not care what the Manufacturers handbook tells us about His creation.

Anything of His creation that has the breath of life is a living soul.

A soul is the individual of its kind. The kinds are individual created spirits, which spirit is the force obeying God to multiply the kind after its own image, from the head of them which He created at the beginning of creation, when He called all the kinds into being, from the light, the fire, the waters and the ground in six evenings and mornings.

The life is in the blood, and so the blood and the soul are used interchangeably, some times. The soul is in the body, so the body and the soul are used interchangeably, some times. The spirit is the force which drives the body to be formed for the soul to be housed [after its kind, as the Creator commanded it in the beginning of creation], so the spirit and soul are used interchangeably, some times. When a living soul is conceived by the seed of its kind, the spirit immediately beats out -stretches out- the house of its kind for the living soul which is conceived, to wear as its house. You can see the work of the spirit under the microscope, but you cannot see the spirit. the spirit of the kind is the life force inherent in every seed of every kind, obeying YHWH's command to be fruitful and multiply itself after its kind.

YHWH is the father of all spirits; whether they are living souls, or spirits only, clothed with the houses of their kinds.

The first description of living souls is in Genesis 1:20-21.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature/sherets/creeping souls/nephesh, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open/face of the firmament of heaven.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living soul that creeps, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 22, 2008

Assyrian said:
So because a completely different text is called 'the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel' ir cancels out the fact another text is called 'the Story of the Book of the Kings'? What sort of argument is that?
Your translation is not faithful to the revealed texts, but is conveying "translator bias".

It is a record written a "cepher/book", of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.
KJV - 1Ki 14:19 - And the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they [are] written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - King James Version 1769 Info

NKJV - 1Ki 14:19 - Now the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he made war and how he reigned, indeed they are written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NLT - 1Ki 14:19 - The rest of the events of Jeroboam's reign, all his wars and how he ruled, are recorded in The Book of the History of the Kings of Israel.

: - New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NIV - 1Ki 14:19 - The other events of Jeroboam's reign, his wars and how he ruled, are written in the book of the annals of the kings of Israel.

: - The Holy Bible, New International Version© 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

ESV - 1Ki 14:19 - Now the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel.

: - English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

RVR - 1Ki 14:19 - Los demás hechos de Jeroboam, las guerras que hizo, y cómo reinó, todo está escrito en el libro de las historias de los reyes de Israel.

: - Reina-Valera © 1960 Sociedades Bíblicas en América Latina

NASB - 1Ki 14:19 - Now the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he made war and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel.

o: - New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - 1Ki 14:19 - Now the rest of the acts of Jerobo'am, how he warred and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel.

: - Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

ASV - 1Ki 14:19 - And the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - American Standard Version 1901 Info

YNG - 1Ki 14:19 - And the rest of the matters of Jeroboam, how he fought, and how he reigned, lo, they are written on the book of the Chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

DBY - 1Ki 14:19 - And the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

WEB - 1Ki 14:19 - And the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they [are] written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

HNV - 1Ki 14:19 - The rest of the acts of Yarov`am, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Yisra'el.

: - Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

VUL - 1Ki 14:19 - reliqua autem verborum Hieroboam quomodo pugnaverit et quomodo regnaverit ecce scripta sunt in libro verborum dierum regum Israhel

Assyrian · Dec 23, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
Assyrian said:

So because a completely different text is called 'the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel' ir cancels out the fact another text is called 'the Story of the Book of the Kings'? What sort of argument is that?Your translation is not faithful to the revealed texts, but is conveying "translator bias".

It is a record written a "cepher/book", of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.
KJV - 1Ki 14:19 - And the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they [are] written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - King James Version 1769 Info

NKJV - 1Ki 14:19 - Now the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he made war and how he reigned, indeed they are written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NLT - 1Ki 14:19 - The rest of the events of Jeroboam's reign, all his wars and how he ruled, are recorded in The Book of the History of the Kings of Israel.

: - New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NIV - 1Ki 14:19 - The other events of Jeroboam's reign, his wars and how he ruled, are written in the book of the annals of the kings of Israel.

: - The Holy Bible, New International Version© 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

ESV - 1Ki 14:19 - Now the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel.

: - English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

RVR - 1Ki 14:19 - Los demás hechos de Jeroboam, las guerras que hizo, y cómo reinó, todo está escrito en el libro de las historias de los reyes de Israel.

: - Reina-Valera © 1960 Sociedades Bíblicas en América Latina

NASB - 1Ki 14:19 - Now the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he made war and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel.

o: - New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - 1Ki 14:19 - Now the rest of the acts of Jerobo'am, how he warred and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the Book of the Chronicles of the Kings of Israel.

: - Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

ASV - 1Ki 14:19 - And the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - American Standard Version 1901 Info

YNG - 1Ki 14:19 - And the rest of the matters of Jeroboam, how he fought, and how he reigned, lo, they are written on the book of the Chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

DBY - 1Ki 14:19 - And the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

WEB - 1Ki 14:19 - And the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they [are] written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel.

: - Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

HNV - 1Ki 14:19 - The rest of the acts of Yarov`am, how he warred, and how he reigned, behold, they are written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Yisra'el.

: - Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

VUL - 1Ki 14:19 - reliqua autem verborum Hieroboam quomodo pugnaverit et quomodo regnaverit ecce scripta sunt in libro verborum dierum regum Israhel

Click to expand...

Yet if we look at the verse I actually quoted rather than the completely different verse you tried to reply with, four of the versions you quote there use the word story.
2 Chronicles 24:27

KJV - 2Ch 24:27 - Now [concerning] his sons, and the greatness of the burdens [laid] upon him, and the repairing of the house of God, behold, they [are] written in the story of the book of the kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his stead.

WEB - 2Ch 24:27 - Now [concerning] his sons, and the greatness of the burdens [laid] upon him, and the repairing of the house of God, behold, they [are] written in the story of the book of the kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his stead.

ESV - 2Ch 24:27 - Accounts of his sons and of the many oracles against him and of the rebuilding* of the house of God are written in the Story of the Book of the Kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his place.

While the NLT uses story at the beginning of the verse.
NLT - 2Ch 24:27 - The complete story about the sons of Joash, the prophecies about him, and the record of his restoration of the Temple of God are written in The Commentary on the Book of the Kings. When Joash died, his son Amaziah became the next king.

'Commentary' is also used 4 times
'treatise' 2
'annals' 1
'annotations' 1 and
'inquiry' 1

Apparently the translators of the King James showed the same 'translator bias' you complain about. What exactly do you think they were biased about back in 1611 and why do you think they show the same 'bias' as translators of modern versions? Really I think this shows more about your own biases as you keep coming out with this cry of 'translator bias' whenever the bible contradicts you.

So you still haven't answered my question. What is the point of replying to a verse using the word 'story' with a completely different verse using a completely different Hebrew word?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 23, 2008

Assyrian said:
Apparently the translators of the King James showed the same 'translator bias' you complain about. What exactly do you think they were biased about back in 1611 and why do you think they show the same 'bias' as translators of modern versions? Really I think this shows more about your own biases as you keep coming out with this cry of 'translator bias' whenever the bible contradicts you.

So you still haven't answered my question. What is the point of replying to a verse using the word 'story' with a completely different verse using a completely different Hebrew word?

They also use the word cepher -book.
2Ch 24:27 Now [concerning] his sons, and the greatness of the burdens [laid] upon him, and the repairing of the house of God, behold, they [are] written in the story/midrash of the book/ h5612 ספר cepher of the kings. And Amaziah his son reigned in his stead.

"book/cepher " is translated AV — book 138, letter 29, evidence 8, bill 4, learning 2, register 1, learned + 03045 1, scroll 1

"Midrash" is traslated twice, as story. AV — story 2
Chronicles is a rewritten version of Kings, and was written after the return from exile...and yes; KJV is filled with translator bias. That is why I try to always go to the "original" manuscript words before making a doctrine out of translator bias. They did work from ignorance of the message many times, but they did try to be faithful to the text, unless the true translation would upset "tradition".

The author of Chronicles is a midrash man who sees allegory in all the Word; but that allegory which he sees is not neccessarily "inspired". When reading midrash that came out of the Babylonian exile years one sees they miss the mark many times, because the understanding is darkened from the time of the departing of the Glory of YHWH form the temple, in Ezekiel chapters 1=10. That glory never returned and the blindness is remaining to this day.

1Ki 10:26 And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four thousand horsemen, hundred chariots, and twelve whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem.
2Ch 1:14 And Solomon gathered chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, which he placed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
2Ch 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

Sometimes the author of Chronicles garbled it up -like as this account seems to be from the history that is available to us:
1Ch 4:18 And his wife Jehudijah bare Jered the father of Gedor, and Heber the father of Socho, and Jekuthiel the father of Zanoah. And these [are] the sons of Bithiah the daughter of Pharaoh, which Mered took.
Merel/Meror is the name of a Pharaoh in Jasher, who was the father of Bithiah, the princess who rescued Moses and gave him the name Moses. Jered was the name Moses' sister Miriam named him, as the "upright record" -the Book of Jasher- states. The person who rewrote Kings after the return from exile garbled all that up, it seems...but that happens sometimes; yet the message of the doctrine of God and His plan for the redemption of the earth and of all the Adam seed [whoever will], is not changed.

65:37And the children of Israel called Melol the king of Egypt "Meror, king of Egypt," because in his days the Egyptians had embittered their lives with all manner of work.

Jasher 68: 24-32And at the end of two years, when the child grew up, she brought him to the daughter of Pharaoh, and he was unto her as a son, and she called his name Moses, for she said, Because I drew him out of the water.
And Amram his father called his name Chabar, for he said, It was for him that he associated with his wife whom he had turned away.
And Jochebed his mother called his name Jekuthiel, Because, she said, I have hoped for him to the Almighty, and God restored him unto me.
And Miriam his sister called him Jered, for she descended after him to the river to know what his end would be.
And Aaron his brother called his name Abi Zanuch, saying, My father left my mother and returned to her on his account.
And Kehath the father of Amram called his name Abigdor, because on his account did God repair the breach of the house of Jacob, that they could no longer throw their male children into the water.
And their nurse called him Abi Socho, saying, In his tabernacle was he hidden for three months, on account of the children of Ham.
And all Israel called his name Shemaiah, son of Nethanel, for they said, In his days has God heard their cries and rescued them from their oppressors.
And Moses was in Pharaoh's house, and was unto Bathia, Pharaoh's daughter, as a son, and Moses grew up amongst the king's children.

Then we even have proof that the Hebrew text used to translate the Septuagint is not the same Hebrew text we have access to today. The Upright Record gives the accounts of the names and ages and years of the occurances from Adam to Joshua going into Canaan, so we see that the Hebrew of today is correct on the dates and ages that conflict with the Septuagint. But where is the Hebrew text that the Septuagint used?
And did the original Hebrew state this, which is from the Septuagint? - Hbr 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me.

The prepared body for YHWH, in the Person of the Word, to come in flesh in, is the doctrine of Christ's coming at the incrnation; but why is it not in the Hebrew text that we have access to today? Is it because it was removed by those biased Jews who did not believe in YHWH coming in flesh? -probably. They're the same ones who rejected the writings of Enoch in the first century -after they had rejected the Son of Man who is come; and who is YHWH come in flesh of a second Man, to be the Acceptable Atonement for all Adamkind: for the Jew first, and also for the Gentile.

Jadis40 · Dec 23, 2008

Ysm, we don't need Enoch to know who Christ was, and whatever Enoch allegedly wrote doesn't matter to me. The canonical Old Testament as accepted by the vast majority of Christians does a sufficient job of that. All "orthodox" Christians affirm that Jesus came in the flesh, and we also affirm the belief that Jesus was fully man and fully God.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

I've gotten into arguments with Muslims over those very verses, who've fallen victim to the claims of Jews who don't believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah. They instead claim it's referencing someone else.

Isaiah 59:20
"And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, declares the LORD."

Jesus also referenced Isaiah, when he said that Isaiah 61:1-2 had been fulfilled the day he read those verses in the synagogue.

And Christ's death? The entire chapter Isaiah 53 is prophecy devoted to Christ and his death upon the cross. Jesus didn't quote Enoch when He said "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" He was quoting Psalm 22:1.

gluadys · Dec 23, 2008

yeshuasavedme said:
The author of Chronicles is a midrash man who sees allegory in all the Word; but that allegory which he sees is not neccessarily "inspired".

Sometimes the author of Chronicles garbled it up -like as this account seems to be from the history that is available to us:

So, the non-canonical book of Enoch is inspired but the canonical book of Chronicles is "not necessarily 'inspired'".

And no creationist is protesting this?

Where is mark kennedy when we need him?

yeshuasavedme · Dec 23, 2008

gluadys said:
So, the non-canonical book of Enoch is inspired but the canonical book of Chronicles is "not necessarily 'inspired'".

And no creationist is protesting this?

Where is mark kennedy when we need him?

The word translated "Scripture" means "writings". Not all "writings" are inspired, as the Jews will tell you.
The histories of the OT are correct histories, but there are some scribal errors in them that are self corrected within the books, generally.

Jasher, Judges, Ruth, the records of Samuel, the records of the Kings/Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, and the Maccabees are history records. You do not use them for "thus saith YHWH". Moses wrote the law and the prophets wrote by inspiration, but the histories are not "inspired".
Jesus speaks of the law, the prophets, the Wisdom of God and the Scriptures. Enoch is a prophet and his writings are inspired Scripture and one of his books is called Wisdom.
Song of Solomon is not inspirired, not history, not wisdom, and not fit to be included in the Word of God. That is my opinion and I am welcome to it. Those men who included Song of Solomon were not inspiried themselves, for if they had been, then they would never have included the soft porn writings of Solomon in his state of debauchery and adultery, at a time when he was idle and spending time examining the belly button and breasts of the Egyptian princess, to whom he was in an adulterous relationship with at the same time that he had hundreds of illegal wives and concubines in his harem, which is against the inspired Word of God in the Law of Moses. 1 Kings 11 tells of Solomon's fall, and idolatry and adulery.

BTW: the Holy Spirit did not wait for hundreds of years after the Church was established to call a certain group of men together in one area of the world to decide by thier own concensus [but hardly were they in full agreement] what is "canon". Enoch was called Scripture from the beginning of the NT Church by those who were with Christ.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 23, 2008

Assyrian said:
2Chron 24:27

But that idea about us falling in Adam because we were seeds in his loins is Augustine, not scripture.

We were created as the seed in the loins of the first Adam. Each human being born into the world is the seed of Adam, multiplied in the kind. Being born in Adam is to be born in the Adam spirit, which is one spirit/kind/force.
If Augustine got anything right then he got it only from the Word of God -which He generally had a low regard for, and he did not understand the living oracles commited to the namesake people of the New Man name.

Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Exd 1:5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt [already].

1Ki 8:19 Nevertheless thou shalt not build the house; but thy son that shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house unto my name.

Hbr 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Hbr 7:9,10 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 23, 2008

Mallon said:
That some of the newcomers to this forum claim to have both (a) infallible insight into God's original intended meaning of the Scriptures and (b) the ability to know a person's heart really amazes me. Almost as though they think they are God themselves. It's quite revealing, really.

So you take an agnostic view of God's original intended meaning of the Scriptures. That is denigrating to God's Word.
And I know nothing of a person's heart here but that which comes out of the heart of the person as it is written by them, on this forum.
I do not close my eyes to the blasphemy spewed forth on this forum in the name of the doctrines of "agnostic" thiestic evolution.
I will contend for the Truth of the Word of God and the simplicity of His record on the creation of the heavens and the earth and of all that is in them in exactly six evenings and mornings =six days -just about a complete six thousand years ago, as His record tells us.

shernren · Dec 24, 2008

gluadys said:
So, the non-canonical book of Enoch is inspired but the canonical book of Chronicles is "not necessarily 'inspired'".

And no creationist is protesting this?

Where is mark kennedy when we need him?

Digging up hominid fossils?

I don't know. He's taking quite a while on the formal debate too, though to be fair I've taken plenty of time to reply him as well.

yeshuasavedme · Dec 24, 2008

gluadys said:
...

shernren said:
Digging up hominid fossils?

I don't know. He's taking quite a while on the formal debate too, though to be fair I've taken plenty of time to reply him as well.

So where is the Scripture of Truth that the angels read; from which the angel showed Daniel all the things that would happen to his people, from Daniel's time and to the end of times?
Why is that Scripture of Truth missing from a man'made list of "canon"?

Dan 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
'abal nagad rasham kathab 'emeth 'echad chazaq Miyka'el sar

nagad ; 2) to declare, make known, expound

Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

``kathab;
1) a writing, document, edict
a) register, enrolment, roll
b) mode of writing, character, letter
c) letter, document, a writing
Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

```emeth; in truth, truly
Gesenius's Lexicon (Help)

``
-one/echad binds/chazaq [ with me in these things] Michael, [your] prince/sar.

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