Good and Logical Spock / Bad, Illogical Spock

2PhiloVoid · Jun 30, 2020

durangodawood said:
Have any Christian types rejected Spock behavior here?

If almost seems like no one Christian here has seen this movie. So, I don't think a number of the folks who have participated thus far in this thread (most male and Christian) know enough about the scene presented in the OP for them to give an informed opinion one way or the other. But some of their off-the-cuff opinions are kind of ... surprising to me.

Personally, I think the context of the movie puts Spock's resorting to 'drastic measures' in an unfavorable moral light, and for a reason that goes with the message of the movie on the whole. But I won't get into that here, at least not yet. I want to see how everyone else morally and ethically attempts to assess this movie scene.

If we were to try to vindicate Spock's actions here, we'd have to do so by some ethically technical and morally provisional assessments that the movie itself doesn't contain or also allude to.

Strathos · Jun 30, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
If almost seems like no one Christian here has seen this movie.

I have.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 30, 2020

Strathos said:
I have.

Ok. That's one!

I thought it was one of the better 'original cast' Star Trek movies myself, right behind Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn. Not that anyone need agree with me about that though.

Strathos · Jun 30, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
Ok. That's one!

I thought it was one of the better 'original cast' Star Trek movies myself, right behind Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn. Not that anyone need agree with me about that though.

Generally the even numbered ones are better.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 30, 2020

Strathos said:
I have.

So, do you think Spock was justified in his actions in the OP movie scene? (I'm not looking for a right or wrong answer; I'm just wondering?)

Strathos · Jun 30, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
So, do you think Spock was justified in his actions in the OP movie scene? (I'm not looking for a right or wrong answer; I'm just wondering?)

As it was necessary to save lives and prevent a war, it could probably be justified, but that doesn't mean there wasn't anything questionable about it.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 30, 2020

Strathos said:
As it was necessary to save lives and prevent a war, it could probably be justified, but that doesn't mean there wasn't anything questionable about it.

Yeah, that's probably a good starting point at which to begin assessing the moral integrity of the apparent ethical dilemma presented in this scene. I could be wrong, but I think the scene was designed to elicit a viewer's questioning over the deeper essence of Utilitarian (or even Pragmatic) ethics.

Sketcher · Jun 30, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
Isn't the mind a part of the body though?

I would say there's a difference, especially since Vulcan minds are linked to their katras, and their katras may be transferred to other bodies (and Spock didn't get informed consent when he transferred his katra either).

Chesterton · Jun 30, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
Y'know what's interesting, though? There's not very many secular, skeptical types who are Star Trek fans showing up to put any kibosh on Spock's behavior .................................. and I kind of wonder why.

Edit: There was Clizby Wampuscat above. But that's only one.

Two questions: a "meld" sounds like the patty melt I get at IHOP. Two things become one. If his mind is melded with hers, and hers with his, who's the rapist?

Second, how was she harmed? If she had dangerous thoughts she should be grateful he got them out of her and saved people.

2PhiloVoid · Jul 1, 2020

Sketcher said:
I would say there's a difference, especially since Vulcan minds are linked to their katras, and their katras may be transferred to other bodies (and Spock didn't get informed consent when he transferred his katra either).

So, Lt. Valeris -- or Spock even -- wasn't suffering emotional pain in the slightest in that scene?

2PhiloVoid · Jul 1, 2020

Chesterton said:
Two questions: a "meld" sounds like the patty melt I get at IHOP. Two things become one. If his mind is melded with hers, and hers with his, who's the rapist?

This is kind of a serious thing to ask, Chesteron? Did you watch the scene in the OP? I'm kind of wondering.

Second, how was she harmed? If she had dangerous thoughts she should be grateful he got them out of her and saved people.

... that one point of view, but what would make his actions justified? Was Spock justified before he began his mind-meld with Valeris? And was Spock still justified after his mind-mild with her?

I'd have to question the automatic assumption in saying "yes" to these questions.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost sounds like some folks here, even some Christians, think torture is 'ok' if it's done to protect a nation?

Do we want to say it is? And if so, under what ethical conditions makes it justified?

Chesterton · Jul 1, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
This is kind of a serious thing to ask, Chesteron? Did you what the scene in the OP? I'm kind of wondering.

Yeah, I watched it. She makes some kind of grunts near the end, but that doesn't answer my question.

... that one point of view, but what would make his actions justified? Was Spock justified before he began his mind-meld with Valeris? And was Spock still justified after his mind-mild with her?

I'd have to question the automatic assumption in saying "yes" to these questions.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it almost sounds like some folks here, even some Christians, think torture is 'ok' if it's done to protect a nation?

Do we want to say it is? And if so, under what ethical conditions makes it justified?

You didn't say it was "torture" before. I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion because outside of some Google business practices I don't really know what a mind-meld is.

2PhiloVoid · Jul 1, 2020

Chesterton said:
Yeah, I watched it. She makes some kind of grunts near the end, but that doesn't answer my question.

You didn't say it was "torture" before. I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion because outside of some Google business practices I don't really know what a mind-meld is.

Ok.

Sketcher · Jul 1, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
So, Lt. Valeris -- or Spock even -- wasn't suffering emotional pain in the slightest in that scene?

Emotional pain isn't physical pain. Besides, we're talking about Vulcans, who discipline their minds to minimize acting on, and even feeling emotions. They can slip through sometimes, such as during/after mind melds, but they discipline themselves to recover from that.

2PhiloVoid · Jul 2, 2020

Sketcher said:
Emotional pain isn't physical pain. Besides, we're talking about Vulcans, who discipline their minds to minimize acting on, and even feeling emotions. They can slip through sometimes, such as during/after mind melds, but they discipline themselves to recover from that.

Emotional pain isn't physical pain? ..............wow. I've always been under the impression that it is.

durangodawood · Jul 2, 2020

Sketcher said:
Emotional pain isn't physical pain. Besides, we're talking about Vulcans, who discipline their minds to minimize acting on, and even feeling emotions. They can slip through sometimes, such as during/after mind melds, but they discipline themselves to recover from that.

Sometimes emotional pain can be worse.

Chesterton · Jul 2, 2020

durangodawood said:
Sometimes emotional pain can be worse.

Very, very rarely I'd suppose.

Sketcher · Jul 2, 2020

2PhiloVoid said:
Emotional pain isn't physical pain? ..............wow. I've always been under the impression that it is.

Nope, it isn't. I've had my share of both to know they are different.

2PhiloVoid · Jul 3, 2020

Sketcher said:
Nope, it isn't. I've had my share of both to know they are different.

Well......do you want to back this up with sources, bro? I'm asking because I've had my share of it emotional garbage and physical pain in life, too, but I've also taken college classes in theoretical psychology, biological psychology, and philosophy and I don't come down on the side of seeing 'mental pain' as being somehow 'non-physical.'

John Helpher · Jul 3, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
Grabbing that young Vulcan girl

It's fair to call her young, but she's clearly not a girl.

2PhiloVoid said:
by FORCING a mind-meld (which for Vulcans can have a sexual nature) with her......................in order to extract information from her that will help Spock and friends avoid a catastrophic, intergalactic war.

It can be a little difficult to appreciate how the morality applies when referring to a skill that is, (as of yet), beyond human ability. I've not seen the movie so I don't know the full context, but based on your explanation, and the woman screaming during part of the exercise, suggests that Spoke is forcefully invading her mind in a way that results in pain for at least part of the procedure. We don't know what the pain is, but based on the way the woman screams, it's reasonable to infer that the pain is akin to something like physical torture, i.e. using a knife or flame to hurt someone into talking.

If Spock did not have some special psychic ability, but rather used a pair of pliers to pull the woman's finger nails off, the audience would probably have a pretty different view of him even though the end result would be the same; he'd get the necessary information to save the day. The mind-meld appears to be a way to torture but still maintain the good-guy reputation as it's a fantasy power none of us can relate to. Or maybe they would not view him differently. Maybe they would still think the ends justifies the means, as that happens so often in the world today, e.g. the bad behavior of the good guys is justified because they are the good guys.

There are different methods to making someone talk. One is the personal violence which Spock used (the mind-meld was clearly a pain inducing procedure). Another alternative which does not require violence to the specific target is to threaten something (or someone) dear to the target, like a business or family member. A third way of getting information is to trick the target into confessing. This is the preferred option as it is the least morally ambiguous, but it requires more time, effort, and thought, which is a rare commodity these days.

Good and Logical Spock / Bad, Illogical Spock

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