Good and Bad

[BenAdam]

I have been researching house churches, or whatever you want to call them of late. I have noticed that many advocates of this appear to believe that everything associated with traditional churches is bad and that only house churchs are good. I would really like any of you that advocate house churches to distill you view down for me. Thanks.

 

[New_Wineskin]

I have been researching house churches, or whatever you want to call them of late. I have noticed that many advocates of this appear to believe that everything associated with traditional churches is bad and that only house churchs are good. I would really like any of you that advocate house churches to distill you view down for me. Thanks.

I would say that not even half of them believe that everything associated with traditional groups is bad . I also would say that not even half would say that only house groups are good .

But , I would also say that many in traditional groups consider house groups ( house churches ) to be suspicious or off track . But , we know that most groups , in general , think that they have the correct way or the most correct way .

Sure , there are those in the extremes that think that homes are the god-directed thing to do . They are usually the most vocal as with the extremes of other groups .

 

[If Not For Grace]

advocates of this appear to believe that everything associated with traditional churches is bad

It seems that way to me on the threads here (that I have read). I am guilty of the opposite--It seems to me the home church-ed are those who can not seem to resolve a difference with the mainstream church on any level. It's their way or the highway--they seem to perpetuate what they complain about. So I say let'm go. they make it.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Just do what seems right.

 

[BenAdam]

Just do what seems right.

Don't you think that is dangerous? How many people have been burned at the stake because others were just doing what seemed right to them?

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Don't you think that is dangerous? How many people have been burned at the stake because others were just doing what seemed right to them?

How many people were burned at the stake for doing what seemed right?

Do you suggest we do what seems wrong? (Church has been doing that for centuries, lets change the record!)

 

[BenAdam]

How many people were burned at the stake for doing what seemed right?

Do you suggest we do what seems wrong? (Church has been doing that for centuries, lets change the record!)

I suggest we judge what we think is right by scripture.

We think this church is wrong, or that person is wrong, but we need to be careful lest we fall into error.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

1Malachi 3 (The Message)

The Message (MSG)Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

Malachi 3

The Master You've Been Looking For

1"Look! I'm sending my messenger on ahead to clear the way for me. Suddenly, out of the blue, the Leader you've been looking for will enter his Temple--yes, the Messenger of the Covenant, the one you've been waiting for. Look! He's on his way!" A Message from the mouth of GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies. 2But who will be able to stand up to that coming? Who can survive his appearance?

He'll be like white-hot fire from the smelter's furnace. He'll be like the strongest lye soap at the laundry. 3He'll take his place as a refiner of silver, as a cleanser of dirty clothes. He'll scrub the Levite priests clean, refine them like gold and silver, until they're fit for GOD, fit to present offerings of righteousness. 4Then, and only then, will Judah and Jerusalem be fit and pleasing to GOD, as they used to be in the years long ago.

5

"Yes, I'm on my way to visit you with Judgment. I'll present compelling evidence against sorcerers, adulterers, liars, those who exploit workers, those who take advantage of widows and orphans, those who are inhospitable to the homeless--anyone and everyone who doesn't honor me." A Message from GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies. 6"I am GOD-yes, I AM. I haven't changed. And because I haven't changed, you, the descendants of Jacob, haven't been destroyed. 7You have a long history of ignoring my commands. You haven't done a thing I've told you. Return to me so I can return to you," says GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies.

"You ask, "But how do we return?'

8"Begin by being honest. Do honest people rob God? But you rob me day after day.

++ just try to find an honest pastor, trad. or house church, either one. ++


"You ask, "How have we robbed you?'

"The tithe and the offering--that's how! 9And now you're under a curse--the whole lot of you--because you're robbing me. 10Bring your full tithe to the Temple treasury so there will be ample provisions in my Temple.


++note the tithe was to feed, clothe
and house the poor; not build glass temples.++
++most traditional and most house
churches ignore the poor, hence G_d's wrath ++
++refer to verse 5... sorcerers refers
to pharmakopea probably, the greatest ++
deceivers anywhere.


Test me in this and see if I don't open up heaven itself to you and pour out blessings beyond your wildest dreams. 11For my part, I will defend you against marauders, protect your wheat fields and vegetable gardens against plunderers." The Message of GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies. 12"You'll be voted "Happiest Nation.' You'll experience what it's like to be a country of grace." GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies says so.



The Difference Between Serving God and Not Serving Him

13GOD says, "You have spoken hard, rude words to me. "You ask, "When did we ever do that?' 14"When you said, "It doesn't pay to serve God. What do we ever get out of it? When we did what he said and went around with long faces, serious about GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies, what difference did it make? 15Those who take life into their own hands are the lucky ones. They break all the rules and get ahead anyway. They push God to the limit and get by with it.'"

16Then those whose lives honored GOD got together and talked it over. GOD saw what they were doing and listened in. A book was opened in God's presence and minutes were taken of the meeting, with the names of the GOD-fearers written down, all the names of those who honored GOD's name.

17GOD-of-the-Angel-Armies said, "They're mine, all mine. They'll get special treatment when I go into action. I treat them with the same consideration and kindness that parents give the child who honors them. 18Once more you'll see the difference it makes between being a person who does the right thing and one who doesn't, between serving God and not serving him.

 

[mythrainbow]

As far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with whether or not it is a "home church" or a traditional church. It's about the people in it.

I've been to Awesome churches that had great fellowship, involvement in the community, and just an atmosphere of serving God.

I've been to churches that greatly lack all three and in it's stead jealously, popularity, and power governs the church. I've been to churches who are great at serving God, and lack fellowship.
I've been to home groups that are greatly lacking in the deeper fellowship, yet I've been to church services with a great deep fellowship with God and those attending.

I've been to home groups where the Holy Spirit reigned, and lead, and home groups that did more for the community that surrounding churches.

No matter where you go it's the people, and how willing they are to change and adapt to God's will, and how willing they are to be unified with fellow christians.

Revelations 1-3 Illustrates that any group has it's issues. Yes these issues can get in the way of doing His will, but God still recognizes us as His church and helps us change.

I prefer home churches because I can much easier fellowship and unify with a smaller group. I do also prefer home groups because of similarity to what was described in the new testament about how church was done, but God works anywhere, if His people will come together and do His will what else matters?

 

[BenAdam]

As far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with whether or not it is a "home church" or a traditional church. It's about the people in it.

I somewhat agree with you. However, let us say you are a runner. You love to run, but you don't have running shoes, sooner or later because you are doing something wrong, you could get hurt. Now, if we are following a form that was never intended to be followed, eventually couldn't we get hurt?

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I suggest we judge what we think is right by scripture.

We think this church is wrong, or that person is wrong, but we need to be careful lest we fall into error.

Odd comment.

Since when does "doing what seems right" exclude Bible, HS or our faith community?


Church is a mob. People unified by a cause. Or, in our case, a person. New Testament was obviously housechurch in method - but it was not meant to be a blueprint, it was just what seemed right to do to the faith community then.

We do likewise now. We follow Jesus into the world, where God is most, and be church in and with the world.

Plain and simp. (the systems a pimp? maybe)

 

[BenAdam]

Odd comment.

Since when does "doing what seems right" exclude Bible, HS or our faith community?


Church is a mob. People unified by a cause. Or, in our case, a person. New Testament was obviously housechurch in method - but it was not meant to be a blueprint, it was just what seemed right to do to the faith community then.

We do likewise now. We follow Jesus into the world, where God is most, and be church in and with the world.

Plain and simp. (the systems a pimp? maybe)

I don't quite follow you, could you elaborate?

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

www.enginecreations.com/unseenchurch

 

[Tiger lover]

cool

 

[9-iron]

I suggest we judge what we think is right by scripture.

As far as answering the OP. I am a advocate of 'small groups' as the main forum of building up the lives of believers. I also think about 80% of what goes on in the church is little or of no relevance in reaching the lost community.

That said, I can also tear apart home churches as much to same degree as I can organizational churches. Both have very fallible elements to them.

So, it boils down to you finding somewhere you are comfortable with. That means being comfortbable on many levels, just not feel, but also scripturally.

I can say, there is no model in America, home church, or otherwise that fits scripture. You local home church movement is in just as much err as your local 1st Baptist Church. JMO of course!

 

[BenAdam]

As far as answering the OP. I am a advocate of 'small groups' as the main forum of building up the lives of believers. I also think about 80% of what goes on in the church is little or of no relevance in reaching the lost community.

That said, I can also tear apart home churches as much to same degree as I can organizational churches. Both have very fallible elements to them.

So, it boils down to you finding somewhere you are comfortable with. That means being comfortbable on many levels, just not feel, but also scripturally.

I can say, there is no model in America, home church, or otherwise that fits scripture. You local home church movement is in just as much err as your local 1st Baptist Church. JMO of course!

I honestly think a "home church" has less baggage though, ie less to get in the way. Building mortgage, salaries, insurance, irs not for profit filings, church politics, I'm in charge, no, the deacon board is, blah, blah, blah...

 

[9-iron]

I honestly think a "home church" has less baggage though, ie less to get in the way. Building mortgage, salaries, insurance, irs not for profit filings, church politics, I'm in charge, no, the deacon board is, blah, blah, blah...

Yeah, less baggage in that regard, but you can screwed up in the theological head in home church. I have limited experience in home church, but in my experience, I noticed a lot of unhealthy relationships. Such as, co-dependancy, illegal authority exercised, manipulation, unhealthy emotional bonding between women, etc., etc..

 

[New_Wineskin]

Yeah, less baggage in that regard, but you can screwed up in the theological head in home church. I have limited experience in home church, but in my experience, I noticed a lot of unhealthy relationships. Such as, co-dependancy, illegal authority exercised, manipulation, unhealthy emotional bonding between women, etc., etc..

I understand what you are saying . However , the whole idea of the IC is screwed up theologically . Many don't even have room for relationships ( healthy or otherwise ) . With regard to co-dependancy , a major desire of the IC's is to make the people dependant on the group . Their concept of authority is completely messed up . Manipulation is rampant .

The major problems you see in these home groups were brought in from the larger ones . The problems with relationships stem from attempting to obtain what they didn't have in the IC's . There will be much trial and error . It is relatively uncharted country verses the centuries of traditions handed down throughout generations in the larger groups .

My major problem with them is that many still think that one *must* be a part of a group . The idea of membership ( whatever you want to call it ) is incorrect . It is used as an artificial means to force a stable attendance . Another problem I see is that they also attempt to have a "service" . They have kept the idea of a religious ceremony instead of a visit .

As long as HC's insist on bringing in the doctrines of the IC's , there will be problems .

 

[BenAdam]

I understand what you are saying . However , the whole idea of the IC is screwed up theologically . Many don't even have room for relationships ( healthy or otherwise ) . With regard to co-dependancy , a major desire of the IC's is to make the people dependant on the group . Their concept of authority is completely messed up . Manipulation is rampant .

The major problems you see in these home groups were brought in from the larger ones . The problems with relationships stem from attempting to obtain what they didn't have in the IC's . There will be much trial and error . It is relatively uncharted country verses the centuries of traditions handed down throughout generations in the larger groups .

My major problem with them is that many still think that one *must* be a part of a group . The idea of membership ( whatever you want to call it ) is incorrect . It is used as an artificial means to force a stable attendance . Another problem I see is that they also attempt to have a "service" . They have kept the idea of a religious ceremony instead of a visit .

As long as HC's insist on bringing in the doctrines of the IC's , there will be problems .

I completely agree NW, I think that is where the term organic really makes an impact. An organism is a living thing, not a club with memberships, not a military with ranks, not a nation with a priesthood.

 

[Bobber]

I favour the home church approach for I truly think that it does offer everyone the opportunity to use their gifts. I have a hard time really seeing that in the IC way. I remember various churches ive been to filling in these sheets they pass out every once in a while...they're meant to help you find your gifts....well isn't it true that about two people or so out of every 15 or 20 have say the gift to share or teach but when you have a congregation of hundreds of people....how and when in real terms to those people ever get to use their gift. Ive known numbers of people who actually do have the gifting of teaching.

They don't exalt themselves seeking position in their churches and yet they are unfulfilled....they know they have the ability to teach and have the burning passion to do so but no way to really express it....sure there are some but there are only so many opportunities that a pastor gives certain ones he feels comfortable with....so what about all the others who's gifting is stifled? With a House Church concept there would be plenty of opportunity for all to use their giftings, not just speaking gifts, but music or whatever else and they would be able to do so on a regular basis.