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Thanks. Which commentator did you take it from?Hebrews 4:9 Commentaries: So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
Thayer's Greek: 620. ἀπολείπω (apoleipó) -- 1. to leave, leave behind: one in some place, Titus 1:5 L T Tr WH; 2 Timothy 4:18, 20. Passive ἀπολείπεται it remains, is reserved: Hebrews 4:9; Hebrews 10:26; followed by the accusative and an infinitive, Hebrews 4:6.
Thanks. Which commentator did you take it from?
I fully agree.No doubt there comes a point when it's good to walk away from a debate. But keep in mind that if you are speaking the truth and the person you are trying to correct doesn't accept it, it doesn't mean your time is wasted. Other people are reading.
The rules of the internet/ politics/ countries/ regions/ groupsBut you may find it a bit frustrating trying to correct others in these forums.
What do you mean "shut down"?I will often stick around an push my point relentlessly for the very reason you mention but for some reason, on this one, the OP has shut down completely, calling everything an opinion
Nope, that is not what the OP would do.and if we show him verses, it'll then just be, "that's your opinion on what the verse means."
Scriptures can be crystal clear, but the explanation of those scriptures can be clearly flawed.Even if the scripture is crystal clear like some introduced here already.
Well first of all, scripture does tells us we enter Gods rest presently:Why did the author use the future tense then when he referred to that rest? 'There remains a rest...'
meaning it still isn't here.
From Myer's NT Commentary on Hebrews 4:9:
Hebrews 4:9. Deduction from Hebrews 4:7-8, and consequently return to the first half of Hebrews 4:6. “Thus still remaining, still awaiting its advent, is a Sabbath rest for the people of God,” inasmuch, namely,—what the author in reasoning with the Hebrews might presuppose as admitted,—as from David’s time down to the present no one had entered into the κατάπαυσις of God. As Sabbatic rest the author characterizes the rest of God, in adherence to the thought of Hebrews 4:4. As a type of the everlasting blessedness do the Rabbins also regard the Sabbath. Comp. e.g. Jalkut Rubeni, fol. 95. 4 : Dixerunt Israëlitae: Domine totius mundi, ostende nobis exemplar mundi futuri. Respondit ipsis Deus S. B.: illud exemplar est sabbatum. R. D. Kimchi et R. Salomo in Psalms 92.: Psalmus cantici in diem Sabbati, quod hic psalmus pertineat ad seculum futurum, quod totum sabbatum est et quies ad vitam aeternam. See Wetstein and Schöttgen ad loc.
Well first of all, scripture does tells us we enter Gods rest presently:
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For we who have believed do enter that rest...There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. -- (Heb 4:1-10).
"We who believe do enter God's rest",
and "he who has entered" God's rest",
and "has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His".
To enter God's rest is to cease from our works, which we already did.
We who believe through faith in Christ has already entered God's rest where we have already ceased from the physical works of our human nature (the fleshly works of sin), just as God ceased from the physical works of His creation.
Secondly, God's Sabbath rest is the salvation we have in Christ:
“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest…and you will find rest for your souls.” -- (Matthew 11:28-29).
There is a present aspect of salvation and a future aspect of salvation.
We are already saved through faith in Christ, and we will be saved at our future resurrection from mortal to immortal.
So it can, therefore, be said that we are already at rest in Christ through faith, and we will find eternal rest in Christ at the resurrection.
How did you arrive at that conclusion?It's very clear to me the OP isn't open to discussion or the fact they could be wrong.
What do you mean "shut down"?
Nope, that is not what the OP would do.
Paul is referring to observing special days to the Lord in general. God does not require us to observe special days, including Sabbath days. But He does appreciate us setting aside time for Him. This is why Paul said:The context doesn't appear to support your conclusion. I don't see any reference to the Sabbath in Romans 14:4-6. .
The first two verses of Romans 14 explains the context of what Paul is talking about, and it’s not a day of fasting:And you have left an important detail out of verse 6, which appears to tell us what Paul was really talking about. Here is the reference in its entirety:
Romans 14:4-6 (NKJV) "Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5: One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6: He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks."
Paul appears to be talking about designated days for fasting. It seems some were judging others who did not fast on certain days. What I see Paul saying is it is up to the individual to decide which day he or she wants to designate for fasting.
Can you prove from the context that Paul was saying God no longer requires believers to keep the Sabbath day holy?
Just because something was sanctified as holy does not mean it is required forever:And how could every day be alike within the context of a sabbath day when God only sanctified the seventh day (Gen. 2:2-3)?
What right do we have to take the day God set apart as holy and say it makes no difference now? I don't see Paul saying that.
But you haven't offered any view at all. When you offer something substantial and I shut down, then you will have a point. So far you have only offered accusations and criticisms.Shut down to opposing views. Views that are clear. As in, I could put White right in front of you and you'd argue it was Black.
I agree.The 'rest' is used in more than one sense. It is the rest we have in Christ, and it is the rest the world will have during the Messianic age.
I considered this. But what I see is the whole issue seems to have to do with eating, not sabbath days.The first two verses of Romans 14 explains the context of what Paul is talking about, and it’s not a day of fasting:
“Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.” -- (Romans 14:1-2).
Paul is addressing a dispute over whether or not to eat meat, a dispute over which foods should be eaten, and not a dispute over fasting, which is the complete opposite.
Paul in Romans 14 is addressing controversial issues regarding the Jewish law, issues concerning unclean foods and observing special days.
Why did the author use the future tense then when he referred to that rest? 'There remains a rest...'
meaning it still isn't here.
From Myer's NT Commentary on Hebrews 4:9:
Hebrews 4:9. Deduction from Hebrews 4:7-8, and consequently return to the first half of Hebrews 4:6. “Thus still remaining, still awaiting its advent, is a Sabbath rest for the people of God,” inasmuch, namely,—what the author in reasoning with the Hebrews might presuppose as admitted,—as from David’s time down to the present no one had entered into the κατάπαυσις of God. As Sabbatic rest the author characterizes the rest of God, in adherence to the thought of Hebrews 4:4. As a type of the everlasting blessedness do the Rabbins also regard the Sabbath. Comp. e.g. Jalkut Rubeni, fol. 95. 4 : Dixerunt Israëlitae: Domine totius mundi, ostende nobis exemplar mundi futuri. Respondit ipsis Deus S. B.: illud exemplar est sabbatum. R. D. Kimchi et R. Salomo in Psalms 92.: Psalmus cantici in diem Sabbati, quod hic psalmus pertineat ad seculum futurum, quod totum sabbatum est et quies ad vitam aeternam. See Wetstein and Schöttgen ad loc.
That's what I see here. I don't see any proof that Paul is saying the Sabbath is no longer applicable to Christians.
. The Haber process also allows the replacement of nitrogen lost when crops are removed from the soil, which prevents the nitrogen being replaced into the soil. Nitrogen is only replaced organically if the plants are left on the land.Interesting how a thread gets derailed. The "Haber-Bosch Process" only allows a cheaper solution and produces empty worthless food. Nitrogen is put in the soil when it rains. Organic matter puts nitrogen in the soil.
I can accept this. Well thought out and presented. Thanks.I agree. Good post.
God did rest, or cease, from the work of creating, but He did not cease from all work.
Jesus, on the Sabbath day, said: "My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I, too, am working." -- (John 5:16-17).
When God ceased from the work of His physical creation, His attention was then focused on the work of Man's salvation, a work which Christ continues to do to this very day.
I tend to think of God's Sabbath rest as a transition from one form of work to another form of work. From physical work to spiritual work. From the work of physical creation to the work of Man’s salvation. God ceased from the physical but continued to work in the spiritual.
Likewise, when we enter God’s Sabbath rest we also make this same transition from physical work to spiritual work, just as God did. We permanently cease from the physical work of our human nature (the fleshly works of sin) while focusing our attention on the spiritual work of our salvation, where we work with God in working out our salvation:
Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to His good purpose. -- (Philippians 2:12-13).
When we enter God's Sabbath rest we permanently cease from the physical so that we may permanently work in the spiritual:
For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our bodies to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the letter. -- (Romans 7:5-6).
What days would a person be observing unto the Lord? Paul say "the." Wouldn't that mean a certain day instead of any day?The context doesn't appear to support your conclusion. I don't see any reference to the Sabbath in Romans 14:4-6.
And you have left an important detail out of verse 6, which appears to tell us what Paul was really talking about. Here is the reference in its entirety:
Romans 14:4-6 (NKJV) "Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5: One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6: He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks."
Paul appears to be talking about designated days for fasting. It seems some were judging others who did not fast on certain days. What I see Paul saying is it is up to the individual to decide which day he or she wants to designate for fasting.
Can you prove from the context that Paul was saying God no longer requires believers to keep the Sabbath day holy?
And how could every day be alike within the context of a sabbath day when God only sanctified the seventh day (Gen. 2:2-3)?
What right do we have to take the day God set apart as holy and say it makes no difference now? I don't see Paul saying that.
Thanks.I can accept this. Well thought out and presented. Thanks.
bugkiller
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