God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

Doveaman · Jul 27, 2017

BobRyan said:
speaking of the JEWs of Romans 2 and Gal 6

Gal 6
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. (KJV)

13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. (NKJv)

Romans 2
3 Do you really think—anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same—that you will escape God’s judgment?

21 you then, who teach another, don’t you teach yourself? You who preach, “You must not steal”—do you steal? 22 You who say, “You must not commit adultery”—do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob their temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 For, as it is written: The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

Obviously Paul was claiming that the Jews were in rebellion against the LAW of God.

They were rebelling against the "righteous requirements" of the law, not against the "latter" of the law:

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

You post appears to undermine your starting conclusion.

That's because you are unable to see beyond the letter of the law.

As I said regarding Romans 3:1-4 Jews had the "oracles of God" the gentiles didn't. Says nothing against Paul's claim that the Jews were breaking the law.

"They were rebelling against the "requirements" of the law, which most certainly included the "letter".

Paul never says - "The Jews kept the "letter" of 10 Commandments."

If he had - in all these years someone would have found that text. So far people only "quote themselves" for such statements.

"The Jews were rebelling against the "righteous requirements" of the law, not the "letter".

The Jews kept the letter of the law: the 10 Commandments, but they did not obey the righteous requirements of the law:

"'If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.' 'Which ones?' the man inquired. Jesus replied, '"Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself."' 'All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?' Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.'"-- (Matthew 19:16-21).

It would seem the "young man" was not following Christ despite his obedience to the letter of the law: the 10 Commandments.

The young man was obeying the letter of the law, but was not fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law. He was not obedient to the righteousness of Christ despite his obedience to the letter of the law.

This again proves that we can obey the letter of the law and still not be obedient to Christ.

It proves that our obedience to Christ is not dependent on our obedience to the latter of the law.

Kenny'sID · Jul 27, 2017

Doveaman said:
Are you worried the OP might persuade others, just as Paul did?

Or twist the bible as the OP did.

Doveaman said:
You obviously haven't been paying close attention, because it is my argument that God's Sabbath-rest still remains:

If you need to pretend I'm the one confused, that's fine. Fortunately the reader can see through that and your comment is for lack of a real reply.

Doveaman said:
The many verses are necessary, since they help to confirm my argument: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"

Much talk is always necessary to talk ones way out of the truth.

Doveaman said:
Lol

Another "for lack of a reply".

Doveaman said:
I'll try to keep my explanation as simple as possible using the same KJV:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." -- (Colossians 2:16-17).

Paul is making the distinction between the body and the shadow.

To use a human argument, the human shadow is a reflection of the human body. The human shadow is not the reality, it's only a reflection of the reality. It is the human body that is the reality. It's that simple.

The Sabbath-day rest was only a shadow that reflected the spiritual body of Christ. The Sabbath-day rest was not the reality, it was only a reflection of the reality. It is the spiritual body of Christ that is the reality. It's that simple.

The Sabbath-day rest now find its true fulfillment in reality through the spiritual body of Christ (the Church): “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest...and ye shall find rest unto your souls.” -- (Matthew 11:28-29).

No long winded explanation needed to counter that mess, so I too will I keep my reply "simple"...

Jesus said "Keep the commandments"

klutedavid · Jul 27, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Or twist the bible as the OP did.

If you need to pretend I'm the one confused, that's fine. Fortunately the reader can see through that and your comment is for lack of a real reply.

Much talk is always necessary to talk ones way out of the truth.

Another "for lack of a reply".

No long winded explanation needed to counter that mess, so I too will I keep my reply "simple"...

Jesus said "Keep the commandments"

Hello Kenny's ID.

Yes Kenny, Jesus did say 'keep the commandments', but He also said much more in the context of this verse.

Matthew 19
17... And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

There is an obvious contradiction in this verse, Jesus said that only God is good. So how can someone who is evil actually strive to keep the commandments?

Yet the truth is unpalatable, we are law breakers to the core. The whole reason for these commandments given to Israel, was to show our disobedience and our need for Jesus.

The commandments are not telling you how to be good, the commandments are telling you something you don't want to hear. The commandments are announcing that you fall way short of any minimum requirement. The fact is the law was made for evil people!

klutedavid · Jul 27, 2017

Hello Bob.

I asked you about the sin of sorcery?

You replied.

It is included in the moral law of God written on the heart.

So is there more than just the ten commandments written on the heart?

Danthemailman · Jul 27, 2017

Doveaman said:
"By the seventh day God had finished the works He had been doing; so on the seventh day He rested from all His works. And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all the works of creating that He had done." -- (Genesis 2:2-3).

God’s Sabbath-rest occurred when God finished and permanently ceased from all His works of creation, and it was on the seventh day of creation week that God permanently ceased from all His works.

There is a distinction between God’s Sabbath-rest (the permanent ceasing from works) and the later established seventh-day rest (the temporary ceasing from works).

The seventh-day rest was established after God had already finished and permanently ceased from all His works. The seventh-day rest, then, was simply a temporary, weekly reminder of the permanent, unceasing reality of God’s Sabbath-rest from creation.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. - Colossians 2:16-17

The seventh-day rest was a temporary, physical shadow or reflection, that represented the permanent, spiritual reality of God’s Sabbath-rest from Creation, a spiritual reality of rest that is now found only in the body of Christ:

“Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest…and you will find rest for your souls.” - Matthew 11:28-29

We who are born-again into the body of Christ are born into the permanent, spiritual reality of God’s Sabbath-rest, where we find permanent rest for our souls from our fleshly works of sin.

There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own works, just as God did from His. - Hebrews 4:9-10

The Sabbath-rest for the people of God is a permanent, unceasing rest from our fleshly works of human nature, just as God’s Sabbath-rest is a permanent, unceasing rest from His physical works of creation.

Great post!

Bob Ryan can learn from your posts on the Sabbath.

Kenny'sID · Jul 27, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello Kenny's ID.

Yes Kenny, Jesus did say 'keep the commandments', but He also said much more in the context of this verse.

Matthew 19
17... And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

There is an obvious contradiction in this verse, Jesus said that only God is good. So how can someone who is evil actually strive to keep the commandments?

Yet the truth is unpalatable, we are law breakers to the core. The whole reason for these commandments given to Israel, was to show our disobedience and our need for Jesus.

The commandments are not telling you how to be good, the commandments are telling you something you don't want to hear. The commandments are announcing that you fall way short of any minimum requirement. The fact is the law was made for evil people!

You make far far too much of that

Christ was simply pointing out how that no one was truly good, as in sinless. He was not saying give up on trying not to sin or in keeping the commandments because you aren't perfect....not by far.

We can easily strive to keep the commandments...your comment makes no sense. There is many a person before being saved that broke the commandments badly, and then stopped doing that afterward. We can strive and though not be perfect, we can be comparatively, very successful at keeping them.

klutedavid said:
The commandments are not telling you how to be good, the commandments are telling you something you don't want to hear. The commandments are announcing that you fall way short of any minimum requirement. The fact is the law was made for evil people!

How to be good? The commandments were what we were commanded not to do. Big, major, basic sins that God was so opposed to he made some rules and said not to do those things.

Then in the OT, he made an atonement system, or punishment system for the breaking of those rules he thought were bad enough to require those things. Today we have Christ instead of the old atonement system.

The commandments are still just as bad as they were, God still doesn't want us breaking them, nor does he want people twisting the simple truth off the bible, making people think they can break those rules.

These things/the truth are all so simple to see over the explanations to change the truth...that is unless we want the truth to be changed....then we can be taken in. Up to us...simple uncomplicated truth, or lies from complicated, never quit clear to the reader, long winded explanations.

BobRyan · Jul 27, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello Bob.
I asked you about the sin of sorcery?

You replied.

It is included in the moral law of God written on the heart.

So also do EVEN your own pro-Sunday scholars teach this. A few examples being --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.
=========================================

When Bible details are so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them.. well.. it "just does not GET any easier than this".

No need to "get stuck on the easy part".

klutedavid said:
If this is the case Bob, then where is the sin of sorcery and witchcraft?

?Where is the sin?? -- false gods maybe ?? just a thought.

Or do you mean that if the TEN Commandments are included then certainly commands against "sorcery and witchcraft" -- surely must be "excluded"???

Do we really think that those pro-sunday scholars would "go for that"??

=================================================

klutedavid said:
So is there more than just the ten commandments written on the heart?

As even your own pro-Sunday scholars would point out regarding sorcery being a form of worship of false gods.

So far your investigation is still about questioning things that your own pro-Sunday scholars would freely admit to as Bible details.

Why do that??

BobRyan · Jul 27, 2017

Doveaman said:
They were rebelling against the "righteous requirements" of the law

Did God have some "unrighteous requirements" in His Ten Commandments that He wrote with His own hand and spoke personally to mankind?

Is there some Bible text saying that??

, not against the "latter" of the law:

The Jews kept the letter of the law: the 10 Commandments,

We have only the quote of "you" for that statement. So far you have yet to find it in the actual Bible.

By contrast we have Paul in Romans 2 and Galatians 6 - flatly denying it.

(As we already saw here)

Gal 6
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. (KJV)

13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. (NKJv)

Romans 2
3 Do you really think—anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same—that you will escape God’s judgment?

21 you then, who teach another, don’t you teach yourself? You who preach, “You must not steal”—do you steal? 22 You who say, “You must not commit adultery”—do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob their temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 For, as it is written: The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

Obviously Paul was claiming that the Jews were in rebellion against the LAW of God.

Kenny'sID · Jul 27, 2017

BobRyan said:
It is included in the moral law of God written on the heart.

Not to mention in the bible.

I think God both writes it on the heart and lists the major sins in the Bible, so the ones that choose not to know, can't claim they didn't. Surely those that are challenging you with that have read sorcery is a sin from somewhere in the Bible?

I don't even understand that because all sin is not listed in the 10, how that can be a defense for The Sabbath not being in affect.

Maybe the stretches are extending so far, it's hard for me to keep up.

listed · Jul 28, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Or twist the bible as the OP did.

If you need to pretend I'm the one confused, that's fine. Fortunately the reader can see through that and your comment is for lack of a real reply.

Much talk is always necessary to talk ones way out of the truth.

Another "for lack of a reply".

No long winded explanation needed to counter that mess, so I too will I keep my reply "simple"...

Jesus said "Keep the commandments"

Jesus said to keep His commandments. Jesus didn't say keep the ten commandments.

listed · Jul 28, 2017

klutedavid said:
Hello Kenny's ID.

Yes Kenny, Jesus did say 'keep the commandments', but He also said much more in the context of this verse.

Matthew 19
17... And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

There is an obvious contradiction in this verse, Jesus said that only God is good. So how can someone who is evil actually strive to keep the commandments?

Yet the truth is unpalatable, we are law breakers to the core. The whole reason for these commandments given to Israel, was to show our disobedience and our need for Jesus.

The commandments are not telling you how to be good, the commandments are telling you something you don't want to hear. The commandments are announcing that you fall way short of any minimum requirement. The fact is the law was made for evil people!

The context of Matthew 19 is being avoided to prove a false doctrine. If Jesus was teaching people to keep the law He is contradicting Himself in John 15:10.

Doveaman · Jul 28, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
No long winded explanation needed to counter that mess, so I too will I keep my reply "simple"...

Well you did ask for an explanation of Colossians 2 and I gave you one.

And as Jesus said, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear".

Jesus said "Keep the commandments"

Yes He did.

Doveaman · Jul 28, 2017

Danthemailman said:
Great post!

Bob Ryan can learn from your posts on the Sabbath.

I think he is learning secretly.

Doveaman · Jul 28, 2017

BobRyan said:
Did God have some "unrighteous requirements" in His Ten Commandments that He wrote with His own hand and spoke personally to mankind?

Where in scripture did God spoke the Ten Commandments personally to mankind?

"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." -- (John 1:17).

The law was given through Moses to the Jews at Mount Sinai, it was not personally given to mankind.

Is there some Bible text saying that??

, not against the "latter" of the law:

Here is the Bible text again:

"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." -- (John 1:17).

Notice the distinctions:

The law was given through Moses, but truth is given through Christ.

The law is given through a mere man, but truth is given through the God-Man.

And the law given through the mere man is different from the truth given through the God-Man.

Observing the letter of the law does not accomplish God's truth, but obeying the righteous requirements of the law is the truth. And the righteous requirements of the law is love, because love is the fulfillment of the law.

To 'fulfill' means to 'bring to its completion or reality'.

The latter of the law is not the completion or reality of God's law, this is why the letter of the law needs to be fulfilled, it needs to be brought to its completion or reality. And it is brought to its completion or reality through the body of Christ:

"For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending His own Son...in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us...For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." -- (Romans 8:3-4, Romans 10:4).

Christ brought the law to its completion or reality by obeying its righteous requirements, which He now commands us to obey:

"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.'' -- (John 15:12-13).

We have only the quote of "you" for that statement. So far you have yet to find it in the actual Bible.

By contrast we have Paul in Romans 2 and Galatians 6 - flatly denying it.

(As we already saw here)

Gal 6
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. (KJV)

13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. (NKJv)

Romans 2
3 Do you really think—anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same—that you will escape God’s judgment?

21 you then, who teach another, don’t you teach yourself? You who preach, “You must not steal”—do you steal? 22 You who say, “You must not commit adultery”—do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob their temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 For, as it is written: The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

Obviously Paul was claiming that the Jews were in rebellion against the LAW of God.

It's not that obvious, as I pointed out before:

"'If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.' 'Which ones?' the man inquired. Jesus replied, '"Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself."' 'All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?' Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.'"-- (Matthew 19:16-21).

The "young man' was obeying the letter of the law, but was not fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law. He was not obedient to the righteousness of Christ despite his obedience to the letter of the law.

This again proves that we can obey the letter of the law and still not be obedient to Christ.

It proves that our obedience to Christ is not dependent on our obedience to the latter of the law.

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2017

listed said:
Jesus said to keep His commandments. Jesus didn't say keep the ten commandments.

In Matt 5 - Jesus said that people that accuse him of being at war with the Commandments are making a mistake.

BobRyan · Jul 28, 2017

Doveaman said:
They were rebelling against the "righteous requirements" of the law

Did God have some "unrighteous requirements" in His Ten Commandments that He wrote with His own hand and spoke personally to mankind?

Is there some Bible text saying that??

, not against the "latter" of the law:

The Jews kept the letter of the law: the 10 Commandments,

We have only the quote of "you" for that statement. So far you have yet to find it in the actual Bible.

By contrast we have Paul in Romans 2 and Galatians 6 - flatly denying it.

(As we already saw here)

Gal 6
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. (KJV)

13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. (NKJv)

Romans 2
3 Do you really think—anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same—that you will escape God’s judgment?

21 you then, who teach another, don’t you teach yourself? You who preach, “You must not steal”—do you steal? 22 You who say, “You must not commit adultery”—do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob their temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 For, as it is written: The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

Obviously Paul was claiming that the Jews were in rebellion against the LAW of God.

Doveaman said:
Where in scripture did God spoke the Ten Commandments personally to mankind?

Exodus 20... "God speaking"

And of course Hebrews 8:6-10 says that specifically it is "Christ speaking" -- these are HIS Commandments according to Hebrews 8.

The point remains.

"This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

Observing the letter of the law does not accomplish God's truth, but obeying the righteous requirements of the law is the truth. And the righteous requirements of the law is love, because love is the fulfillment of the law.

To 'fulfill' means to 'bring to its completion or reality'.

The latter of the law is not the completion or reality of God's law, this is why the letter of the law needs to be fulfilled, it needs to be brought to its completion or reality. And it is brought to its completion or reality through the body of Christ:

You keep quoting "you" for the salient-unproven-part of your argument

Christ said "
Luke 16:17
New American Standard Bible
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."

Kenny'sID · Jul 28, 2017

Doveaman said:
Yes He did.

listed · Jul 29, 2017

BobRyan said:
In Matt 5 - Jesus said that people that accuse him of being at war with the Commandments are making a mistake.

Who is at war with God? I think you're at war with Jesus by promoting the law Jesus didn't give. All the Scripture has already been quoted and rejected.

listed · Jul 29, 2017

BobRyan said:
Did God have some "unrighteous requirements" in His Ten Commandments that He wrote with His own hand and spoke personally to mankind?

This is nothing but a baseless distracting false argument.

Is there some Bible text saying that??

, not against the "latter" of the law:

We have only the quote of "you" for that statement. So far you have yet to find it in the actual Bible.

By contrast we have Paul in Romans 2 and Galatians 6 - flatly denying it.

(As we already saw here)

Gal 6
13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. (KJV)

13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. (NKJv)

Romans 2
3 Do you really think—anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same—that you will escape God’s judgment?

21 you then, who teach another, don’t you teach yourself? You who preach, “You must not steal”—do you steal? 22 You who say, “You must not commit adultery”—do you commit adultery? You who detest idols, do you rob their temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 For, as it is written: The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

Obviously Paul was claiming that the Jews were in rebellion against the LAW of God.

Why are you trying to get us to do something the Jews nor you don't do?

Exodus 20... "God speaking"

And of course Hebrews 8:6-10 says that specifically it is "Christ speaking" -- these are HIS Commandments according to Hebrews 8.

Haven't you been asked where Christ is speaking in Hebrews 8:6-13? Why no response to this question?

The point remains.

"This IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

John makes it clear those commandments of God are to love His dear only begotten Son Jesus and do what Jesus said in 1 John 3:23.

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

You keep quoting "you" for the salient-unproven-part of your argument

Christ said "
Luke 16:17
New American Standard Bible
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."

Jesus also said in the preceding verse: The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

and in indirect reference to Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus said this: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

1stcenturylady · Jul 29, 2017

If we are dead to sin, how can we break any laws? That would be like being under the speed limit laws when you don't even own a car. You don't need laws you can't break.

God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

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