God's plan for humanity

[Jon Goode]

Yesterday I was having a discussion with a christian friend about god's plan for humanity. Basically, my friend said that god didn't have a premeditated plan for us, since he gave us the right to free will. He also said that God didn't intend for the world to have developed into what it is today, but that by sinning, people pulled away from God's plan.

My reasoning was that if God knows everything, then he must have known that people would eventually be corrupted by sin and pull away from God's original plan even before he created us.
I couldn't let this thought out of my mind for the whole day and because I started reasoning further. If God knew that mankind would be corrupted by sin, and that the world would turn into what it is today, then I can only assume that this is actually God's plan for mankind.
I realized that this was a crazy thought, since God couldn't possibly plan for the world to corrupted the way it is right now.
But then I thought: What if God intended the world to become this corrupted, because he has an ultimate and majestic plan for the end of times that could only be that glorious because the world is this corrupted?

That seems to make sense for me but I want to know what wiser people think about it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Free will was required to have children who loved HIM with true and real love, and not 'programmed' emotions.

Only a small number of people on earth are saved,
although all of them had an opportunity to be saved - most willingly chose not to turn to YHWH -
they instead willfully opposed HIM, rejected Y'SHUA,
and remained selfish, obstinate, sinful, greedy, and so on (with increasing and overwhelming sinfulness everywhere) .

ONly the REMNANT are saved, and YHWH PLANNED THIS BEFORE CREATING ANYTHING AT ALL,
and YHWH KNEW ALL ALONG who would be saved and who wouldn't
because YHWH is not confined by time. HE still did not override any man's free will, that is so precious and needed for true love.

ALL of this - HIS PERFECT PLAN FOR SALVATION BY Y'SHUA and atonement by HIS BLOOD (WE [HIS childern] are PURCHASED BY HIS BLOOD)
is to show YHWH'S PERFECT WISDOM throughout ALL ETERNITY to the ANGELS and all beings who ever is and will be alive.

This is all written in HIS WORD. (THE BIBLE).

 

[Daryl Gleason]

Welcome to you, Jon, and grace and peace to you from our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I would agree that you are indeed onto something with that line of thinking.

For now, I would just like to offer Romans 8:22-25 and Isaiah 46:9-10 for your consideration, but there are many, many verses throughout the Bible that address this, not the least of which is the coming, sacrifice, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, himself, which was also planned from the beginning, even before sin entered the world through Adam's and Eve's disobedience.

In Christ,
Daryl

 

[John Hyperspace]

I would disgaree entirely with your friend, the scripture makes clear God is entirely sovereign over all events, and it is He Who is directing the show, and none with Him:

Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 55:11, Isaiah 9:7, Micah 7:20

The plan is to save the world: John 12:47: and reconcile the creation to God: Colossians 1:20, 2 Corinthians 5:19. and to make all men pass from death into life: 1 Corinthians 15:22: The Firsfruits of the first advent: 1 Corinthians 15:23, then they that are Christ's at His coming (these are the "sons of God" to be manifested: Romans 8:19); leading into the "Day of the Lord" (1,000 years of reign over "the nations": Revelation 2:26, Revelation 20:4), in which all mankind will be presently taught the truth in love, instructing the nations: Isaiah 26:9, Jeremiah 31:34: after which period of refinement, the entire creation is delivered over to God (love): 1 Corinthians 15:24 thereby being the Supreme Sovereign over the creation. 1 Corinthians 15:25-28

But then I thought: What if God intended the world to become this corrupted, because he has an ultimate and majestic plan for the end of times that could only be that glorious because the world is this corrupted?

That seems to make sense for me but I want to know what wiser people think about it.

I believe the spirit of your idea is right on target. I believe this story has a twist ending so utterly unimaginably beautiful that ... well, why ruin the surprise?

 

[Jon Goode]

I believe the spirit of your idea is right on target. I believe this story has a twist ending so utterly unimaginably beautiful that ... well, why ruin the surprise?

I'm with you!!

 

[Jon Goode]

I believe the spirit of your idea is right on target. I believe this story has a twist ending so utterly unimaginably beautiful that ... well, why ruin the surprise?

I don't understand how people can assume they know what is going to happen in the end (Apocalypse, destruction, sinners going to hell, remnants going to heaven). How can simple people like ourselves possibly understand what God has planned for us? I have a hard time figuring out what most of what people wrote when they were enlightened by God means. How could we understand the ultimate goal of basically everything?

 

[John Hyperspace]

I don't understand how people can assume they know what is going to happen in the end (Apocalypse, destruction, sinners going to hell, remnants going to heaven). How can simple people like ourselves possibly understand what God has planned for us? I have a hard time figuring out what most of what people wrote when they were enlightened by God means. How could we understand the ultimate goal of basically everything?

As I'm lead to understand, no one can understand anything unless God gives them understanding. For instance: Luke 24:45, 2 Timothy 2:7, 1 John 5:20 Understanding doesn't come from rigorous study, and no one can understand of their own power, but only when it is given to them: Job 38:36, James 1:17. Note the Pharisees, who read the scriptures from youth, and had memorized the portions, but Jesus said: Matthew 22:29, 1 Timothy 1:7 and to others: Matthew 13:11, Luke 8:10, even belief is given: Philippians 1:29

And so, all things being given, the cliche is true: you cannot understand unless you understand. God is giving what He wills to whom He wills, at different times, according to His purpose: Ephesians 4:16 so if any doesn't understand, it simply means it isn't time for them to understand. When it is time, the Spirit will "open their understanding" according to the purpose of God. In time, all will come to understanding: 1 Timothy 2:3-4, Colossians 2:2

 

[Doveaman]

Yesterday I was having a discussion with a christian friend about god's plan for humanity. Basically, my friend said that god didn't have a premeditated plan for us, since he gave us the right to free will. He also said that God didn't intend for the world to have developed into what it is today, but that by sinning, people pulled away from God's plan.

My reasoning was that if God knows everything, then he must have known that people would eventually be corrupted by sin and pull away from God's original plan even before he created us.
I couldn't let this thought out of my mind for the whole day and because I started reasoning further. If God knew that mankind would be corrupted by sin, and that the world would turn into what it is today, then I can only assume that this is actually God's plan for mankind.
I realized that this was a crazy thought, since God couldn't possibly plan for the world to corrupted the way it is right now.
But then I thought: What if God intended the world to become this corrupted, because he has an ultimate and majestic plan for the end of times that could only be that glorious because the world is this corrupted?

That seems to make sense for me but I want to know what wiser people think about it.

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all." -- (Romans 11:32)

Disobedience teaches us the consequence of disobedience.
Disobedience reminds us of our dependence on the mercy of God.
Disobedience is necessary for God's mercy to be displayed.
Christ' sacrifice was planned long before our disobedience.
This shows that God planned in advance for our disobedience.
Disobedience is obviously a part of God's eternal plan.
Of course this does not mean that we practice disobedience.
Because disobedience will be eradicated from the Kingdom of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Yesterday I was having a discussion with a christian friend about god's plan for humanity. Basically, my friend said that god didn't have a premeditated plan for us, since he gave us the right to free will. He also said that God didn't intend for the world to have developed into what it is today, but that by sinning, people pulled away from God's plan.

My reasoning was that if God knows everything, then he must have known that people would eventually be corrupted by sin and pull away from God's original plan even before he created us.
I couldn't let this thought out of my mind for the whole day and because I started reasoning further. If God knew that mankind would be corrupted by sin, and that the world would turn into what it is today, then I can only assume that this is actually God's plan for mankind.
I realized that this was a crazy thought, since God couldn't possibly plan for the world to corrupted the way it is right now.
But then I thought: What if God intended the world to become this corrupted, because he has an ultimate and majestic plan for the end of times that could only be that glorious because the world is this corrupted?

That seems to make sense for me but I want to know what wiser people think about it.

intended is different from foreknow.

Genesis 6 God says he regretted making mankind - but in fact He knew all along about the flood.

Yet He certainly could not say "oh yeah - you fell alright and I am going to flood the world for sure this was my plan all along - I knew you would fail" -- even though He does foreknow the future - saying this to Lucifer, or to Adam or to Noah would present Him as an evil being.

God Loves and treats each of us in the best way - even though He fully foreknows the future. Never does He say "Go ahead and fail you failure -- I knew you would fail - so please do".

That is not the kind of Heavenly Father that we serve.

He "allows failure" but does not cause it. And in a free will universe - intelligent minds "learn" from mistakes... they are convinced to make right actions - via compelling evidence.

 

[Jon Goode]

intended is different from foreknow.

Genesis 6 God says he regretted making mankind - but in fact He knew all along about the flood.

Yet He certainly could not say "oh yeah - you fell alright and I am going to flood the world for sure this was my plan all along - I knew you would fail" -- even though He does foreknow the future - saying this to Lucifer, or to Adam or to Noah would present Him as an evil being.

God Loves and treats each of us in the best way - even though He fully foreknows the future. Never does He say "Go ahead and fail you failure -- I knew you would fail - so please do".

That is not the kind of Heavenly Father that we serve.

He "allows failure" but does not cause it. And in a free will universe - intelligent minds "learn" from mistakes... they are convinced to make right actions - via compelling evidence.

I am not saying that God wanted people to make mistakes and I'm certainly not saying that he causes failure.
What I am saying is that if God so intended, he could have made us perfect. Yet he chose to make beings he knew would turn away from him. Why is this? There must be a greater meaning for this choice. I'm compelled to believe that he chose to make us imperfect to serve the greater plan.
Otherwise, God would only have created us, so that he could pick the few good people out of humanity to be with him for all eternity, knowing all along that the rest of us would spend eternity in hell. Why would he do this, if he loves us so much?

 

[BobRyan]

I am not saying that God wanted people to make mistakes and I'm certainly not saying that he causes failure.
What I am saying is that if God so intended, he could have made us perfect. Yet he chose to make beings he knew would turn away from him. Why is this?

There is another way to look at it.

1. God could have made robots - flawless - but still robots. programmed to never question or fail. But God is bigger than that - He wanted free will.
2. In a free will system there is always the possibility of failure by definition.
3. Heb 1:1-5 and Hebrews 11:1-4 make it appear that God made a great many worlds - lots of people. Only this one planet failed so the free will idea - did not require failure. Even among the angels only 1/3 of them fell into sin.


In a free will system when Lucifer fell God could have wiped him out instantly sparing himself the fall of 1/3 of the Angels and the fall mankind... but then nobody would have understood that the punishment fit the crime it wouldn't have worked in the long run.

Same thing with the fall of the angels - God could have wiped out all the fallen angels when they lost the war in heaven - and they never would have had a chance to tempt other worlds - including this one. But that would have been too early as well - a free-will universe would still not have understood that the punishment fit the crime.

God could have doomed mankind to "partnership with the devil" the moment that perfect-flawless mankind chose to side with the serpent - but instead He offered mankind redemption, the Gospel... a door back to eternal life.

No other beings in the entire universe have that experience.

in Christ,
Bob