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God's folded arms
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<blockquote data-quote="Mark Quayle" data-source="post: 75793722" data-attributes="member: 410020"><p>I wonder why you invoke a rape and murder of a five year old. If your premise is correct, it should be equally applicable to ANY suffering or sin. If THAT is the case, then why is God not cruel for making us in the first place, and the natural decomposition of all things the norm?</p><p></p><p>For what it is worth, I do not invoke free will, your first theodicy. I do claim will and actual choice, but free? --hardly!</p><p></p><p>You said, and this is one of your self-contradictory statements: "This would imply either that God is not powerful or clever enough to get to the state of greater good" If this is his way 'to get to the state of greater good', then it is necessary. He has no wasted effort nor certainly wasted suffering, after all, though this is probably more than you can believe, the suffering is his, more than ours. You think his reasons for what he is doing need not include suffering. You are wrong. You don't know what he is doing, nor how to get there. Your second theodicy is a good one, though stated incompletely, as we don't know the end, nor his reasons for the means. The self-contradiction lies in the fact that God indeed is clever enough to figure out and design and accomplish everything it takes to do what he has in mind as a finished product. You imagine a logical reason he should be able to do a logically impossible thing, simply because you can't see what he is doing, and you don't like the way he is doing it. </p><p></p><p>You said, "Another common response is that there is some greater good that comes out of five-year-olds being brutally raped and murdered. We just don't understand it. This is a dangerous argument because it supposes that the only way for the universe to get from its current state to the state of greater good MUST involve the rape and murder of a five-year-old." Correct. It must include all sadness, catastrophe, suffering and sin that will ever happen. It is not dangerous to consider it necessary, except to unreasoning self-important beings, such as might come up with the illogical conclusion you express here next.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is not ours to secure his overall plan. That is his alone. We are not to take the work of God into our hands to do what produces his finished product, if that means to disobey his command. It is enough that we do disobey what he has commanded, and he uses it for good.. It is not obedience to disobey. Thar is self-contradiction.</p><p></p><p>The apostle Paul takes up your question:</p><p>"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid!"</p><p>But we do, and it does. </p><p></p><p>So it is not obedience to increase God's overall good. That is absurd.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mark Quayle, post: 75793722, member: 410020"] I wonder why you invoke a rape and murder of a five year old. If your premise is correct, it should be equally applicable to ANY suffering or sin. If THAT is the case, then why is God not cruel for making us in the first place, and the natural decomposition of all things the norm? For what it is worth, I do not invoke free will, your first theodicy. I do claim will and actual choice, but free? --hardly! You said, and this is one of your self-contradictory statements: "This would imply either that God is not powerful or clever enough to get to the state of greater good" If this is his way 'to get to the state of greater good', then it is necessary. He has no wasted effort nor certainly wasted suffering, after all, though this is probably more than you can believe, the suffering is his, more than ours. You think his reasons for what he is doing need not include suffering. You are wrong. You don't know what he is doing, nor how to get there. Your second theodicy is a good one, though stated incompletely, as we don't know the end, nor his reasons for the means. The self-contradiction lies in the fact that God indeed is clever enough to figure out and design and accomplish everything it takes to do what he has in mind as a finished product. You imagine a logical reason he should be able to do a logically impossible thing, simply because you can't see what he is doing, and you don't like the way he is doing it. You said, "Another common response is that there is some greater good that comes out of five-year-olds being brutally raped and murdered. We just don't understand it. This is a dangerous argument because it supposes that the only way for the universe to get from its current state to the state of greater good MUST involve the rape and murder of a five-year-old." Correct. It must include all sadness, catastrophe, suffering and sin that will ever happen. It is not dangerous to consider it necessary, except to unreasoning self-important beings, such as might come up with the illogical conclusion you express here next. It is not ours to secure his overall plan. That is his alone. We are not to take the work of God into our hands to do what produces his finished product, if that means to disobey his command. It is enough that we do disobey what he has commanded, and he uses it for good.. It is not obedience to disobey. Thar is self-contradiction. The apostle Paul takes up your question: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid!" But we do, and it does. So it is not obedience to increase God's overall good. That is absurd. [/QUOTE]
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