This is off topic, but I wanted to remark on it too soon: I don't recall thinking about it so graphically, but your mention of Romans 9, the vessels, might be more literal than I had been thinking. I'll have to look them up, but I recall him saying concerning God's wrath, guilt etc, "fill up then..."! Curious.I was simply thinking that someone with Divine Wisdom would not ask this question.
Someone who loved the Lord and knew His Word already knows the answer, in many ways.
For example:
Romans 9:
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which
He had prepared beforehand for glory.
So now we can use the logic that we have spoken of and ask:
If the Lord has promised that He is preparing a place for us where there will be no sin and death,
or rape, how exactly does that play out in your understanding if you do not live in a world of sin
and death because He is preventing it?
This involves completely ignoring or not believing in a day of Judgment,
and the eternal implications.
This is not about a greater good. It is perfect good, with no evil.
The universe will have to wait, right along with the rest of us.
Romans 8:
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy
to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing
of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who
subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption
into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
That is silly.
Did God screw up his first design (pre Noah) and say'Oh dear, I thought that was going to turn out better. Let me just kill everything (all the babies and animals too) and start again and see if I can do a better job next time."?
There is a lot to show God does exactly what it takes to put some people into positions where they stand between God and what he would do. This is not a mess-up. It might sound impossible, but even this very conversation and its results may be worth the lives of millions, in God's plan. (No wonder God tells us we must give account for every idle word, and has such antipathy against lies and false teachers.)Interesting that you should put it that way. If you look at the relevant verses that are in Genesis it does seem that God messed up and wanted to totally start over but Noah changed God's mind.
You do not know God. You do not know His ways. If you are looking for a fight, I'll not give it to you. My experience tells me that you do not want answers, you want an argument. No thanks. I've better things to do with my time.That is silly.
Did God screw up his first design (pre Noah) and say'Oh dear, I thought that was going to turn out better. Let me just kill everything (all the babies and animals too) and start again and see if I can do a better job next time."?
There is a lot to show God does exactly what it takes to put some people into positions where they stand between God and what he would do. This is not a mess-up. It might sound impossible, but even this very conversation and its results may be worth the lives of millions, in God's plan. (No wonder God tells us we must give account for every idle word, and has such antipathy against lies and false teachers.)
Regardless, if God is indeed God, he is definitely not like us!
Try telling that to all the animals, children and babies that God killed with his flood.Interesting that you should put it that way. If you look at the relevant verses that are in Genesis it does seem that God messed up and wanted to totally start over but Noah changed God's mind.
I'm not looking for a fight.You do not know God. You do not know His ways. If you are looking for a fight, I'll not give it to you. My experience tells me that you do not want answers, you want an argument. No thanks. I've better things to do with my time.
Like the others, that falls short - it's just delaying the choice, if it does any good at all.
This is a really nice post.I've done a first, and started watching a thread before posting on it. I'm stalling because I don't yet have a satisfactory answer for it. But I'm lurking around, thinking it over.
No, your questions are not out of bounds. Others may be happy to answer. I've been over these questions with others so many times that I've had enough. God has demonstrated His love in a way that cannot be surpassed or even matched. He gave His only Son to die in your place. That's the only answer I have. It's the answer that God gave me when I was troubled by similar questions, 45 years ago.I'm not looking for a fight.
I am asking tricky questions though and giving my perspective on the answers.
Of course you have every right not to participate, and if I'm not welcome here, if my questions/responses are out of bounds, I'll consider leaving.
Thank you Pete.No, your questions are not out of bounds. Others may be happy to answer. I've been over these questions with others so many times that I've had enough. God has demonstrated His love in a way that cannot be surpassed or even matched. He gave His only Son to die in your place. That's the only answer I have. It's the answer that God gave me when I was troubled by similar questions, 45 years ago.
This is a really nice post.
Thank you for lurking and taking an interest.
My view is that the problem of evil is too easily dismissed by believers.
God cannot be all powerful and all good with so much suffering in the world.
You're my kind of person.Well, these are all questions that a LOT of us routinely ask ourselves - even the most devout Christian; so I feel as if the thread deserves a good response. Because - let's face it, how ELSE are we expected to learn if we're just passively fed one liners all the time? And if you dare question it, "YOU'RE NOT HOLY!"
We're supposed to question. I feel it should be encouraged more and not treated as fighting talk. All you're asking for is substance.
Try telling that to all the animals, children and babies that God killed with his flood.
Thank you Taodeching for your forthright and thoughtful answer.Well children and babies are the same and they are human so they are are included in that. Many here don't consider animals to have a soul. I am not necessarily one of those whom consider the flood story global and I am not sure the first 11 chapters in Genesis are real but just theological ideas.
Most here can not give you an answer because many do not know of any answer and can't just say "I don't know" and others will just give Christian platitudes, while others fear the answer they have. I have no answer to be quite frank to your OP.
I do have a theory that God the Father is like the watchmaker, assembled the watch, wound it up and doesn't interfere with anything unless absolutely necessary like when He sent His Son.
People risk death for others surprisingly often. Firefighters, the military, the medical profession, parents, and all kinds of "average" people have put their lives on the line to save others. The difference is that the consequences of Jesus not dying are eternal damnation for the whole of humanity. I can assure you that God does not do anything lightly, especially sending his Son to die for us. And Jesus volunteered for the job. He did not die for you because it was a nice thing to do. It had to be done. The difference is that Jesus knew that He would rise again from the dead. He did it because He knew that at least some would appreciate and value His sacrifice. And He did it for His enemies as well as His friends.Thank you Pete.
I would be horrified at anyone dying in my place.
Not an offer I would want or accept.
I find the ethics of substitutionary atonement horrible personally.
Why do you go big, when small is logically just as relevant? And what does a baby killed in the flood have to complain about that a baby drowned in a backyard pool does not? If God is unjust or cruel to cause catastrophe, he is unjust and cruel to cause ANY suffering.Try telling that to all the animals, children and babies that God killed with his flood.
People risk death for others surprisingly often. Firefighters, the military, the medical profession, parents, and all kinds of "average" people have put their lives on the line to save others. The difference is that the consequences of Jesus not dying are eternal damnation for the whole of humanity. I can assure you that God does not do anything lightly, especially sending his Son to die for us. And Jesus volunteered for the job. He did not die for you because it was a nice thing to do. It had to be done. The difference is that Jesus knew that He would rise again from the dead. He did it because He knew that at least some would appreciate and value His sacrifice. And He did it for His enemies as well as His friends.
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