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God's folded arms

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Blindwatchmaker, Mar 5, 2021.

  1. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That is actually to the point I said earlier (not sure if it was on this thread, lol). I say both: "As a little, so a lot", and "As a lot, so a little". I do not understand how it is any more logically convincing to use hyperbolic (or extreme) examples of catastrophe or cruelty or other suffering, than to use the smallest suffering, to logically prove the unjust-ness of God who caused it all.

    So, why draw the line at all? Either he is, or he is not --it has nothing to do with amount or degree, or even with the KIND of injustice.
     
  2. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

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    I don't claim that he can't help. I acknowledge that very often he doesn't help, even though he could. But since there is no one higher than he, that this is a silly reason to not follow him. You may well not believe he exists; but for those who believe that he does exist and is mean-spirited or indifferent, rebelling against him is all the more nonsensical. If God is God and is as bad as some people say he is, then the logical thing to do is to be on his good side and avoid his wrath, because he cannot be overthrown. And if he's not as bad as they say he is, then it's more nonsensical than that, because it's not giving this same God credit for the great generosity he has also given to many. And why is this relevant here? Because you are positing for the sake of this question that God exists, so we have to answer it from the assumption that he does.
     
  3. Taodeching

    Taodeching Well-Known Member

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    No, I say have said "I have no idea what your talking about" sorry about being less then clear. :(
     
  4. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are things that God cannot do because of His nature. He cannot lie, for example. If He did, he would cease to be God.

    God cannot just overlook sin. It's a debt that we owe God. He is not obliged to forgive us. He could just as easily left us to rot in our own hell. Humanity has made a big enough mess as it is, even with Christians praying and interceding for God to help.

    God is not capricious. Would you die to save Hitler? Stalin? How about Charles Manson? Or Osama bin Laden? Jesus died for all men, including the worst.

    If you don't understand the sacrifice that God made, nothing I can say will help you.
     
  5. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +29,331
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    Absolutely it "works." If God prevented all the evils that men do, it WOULD mean that he was interrupting free will and re-inventing human nature which, since Adam's fall, has been either totally or partially depraved, depending on how we look at the matter.
     
  6. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Are you just now realizing that the world is filled with this kind of evil, 24/7?

    Books have been written on "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People".
    Perhaps you should avail yourself of one.
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +29,331
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    Traditionally, it is thought that our nature is both good and bad.

    We are fallen from grace, thanks to the sins of Adam and Eve, but human nature still has been made in the "image and likeness of God," meaning that good impulses exist as well as sinful ones.
     
  8. mmarco

    mmarco Member

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    God has created creatures who have free will and are not inclibed to sin: the angels.
    However, if God had created a universe in which all living creatures were not inclibed to sin, we would not exist. God , in His infinite love, has chosen to created also creatures like us, who are inclined to sin with the purpose to save us from our sins and lead us to the eternal and holy life.

    In other words, my answer to the question: "Could God have created me as a better person?" is: God has created better people than me, but those people are not me and God, in His infinite love, has chosen to create also me.


    You are certainly wrong; I have suffered in my life, and through suffering I have become a better person. The existence of suffering and death in the world make us understand that our earthly life is extremely uncertain and this uncertainty induces many people to look for a superior good, the true Good. If there were no suffering and no death in the world, people would be much more superficial, materialist and edonist.
    Besides, our earthly life , and therefore every suffering, lasts only a finite time, while eternal life in heaven is eternal; eternity is infinitely much more than a whole earthly life. You must consider this problem from the eternity perspective.
    If a child dies here on earth and goes to heaven for eternity, he has gained much more than what he has lost.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
  9. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    ADVISOR HAT

    This thread had a clean up. As a reminder, the only non-Christian allowed to post in threads in this particular forum is the OP.

    Also, while questioning is allowed, blasphemy is not.
     
  10. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    You want a two bit reply to a ten dollar question? For a full understanding you have to know HIS purpose for our creation, the necessity for our free will, how we all fell into sin and what kind of sin it was, the meaning and necessity of election and damnation, why the judgement was postponed and what causes that postponement to end, the purpose of our lives here on earth and how that helps HIM fulfill HIS original purpose....in 20 sound bites or less.

    I could easily list each answer in a sentence or two but that would not convey the understanding you would need to make sense of the answers. If you want a full answer I'm ready to work with you. If you just want to hate GOD, then probably not.
     
  11. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

    +20,691
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    I'm not sure there is a perfectly good answer that satisfies the problem of theodicy.

    A maltheistic perspective doesn't work, because we have God revealed to us in Jesus Christ as perfect love poured out for all people.

    A powerless God perspective doesn't work, because we confess God to be El Shaddai, the Most Strong One.

    I don't know that reason can navigate these waters.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  12. 1watchman

    1watchman Overseer Supporter

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    WOW! This sounds like one who is 'blind' to the Word of God, for He is a loving God who, as He said: "...is not willing that any should perish", etc. As our Bible teaches: "God is love". The bigger picture in Holy Scripture is that our Creator-God knows 'the end from the beginning' which also means he knows who will one-day receive His "...so great salvation" and who never will and will perish. God is seeking the best for His children, but many only want their own ways. We should NEVER imply that God is reckless and mean-spirited. Study His Word, friend, and I strongly urge you to be humble before God!
     
  13. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Yes HE knows that NOW...but did HE know before HE created us? We are told that HE desires the death (in hell) of no one and takes no pleasure in their death so why would we believe HE knew before they were created who would end in hell and who would be saved??

    All HE had to do to keep hell empty for eternity was to not create those whom HE knew would be damned so...why create them?

    The fact HE created some people who will end in hell is the proof that our understanding of HIS omniscience is wrong. It is a mistake because love could not do this to its creation. And it is mind boggling to think that any Church, let alone all of them, could accept this pagan Greek definition of omniscience out of idolatry of all things Greek above the clear scripture that GOD is love.

    We should strive to learn the truth about what HIS being all knowing means for us...and drop the current blasphemy.
     
  14. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    That GOD created us to be able to become HIS Bride if we chose by our free will by faith, not proof, to trust HIM sets all the rest into inevitable motion which ends HIS story of us with the judgement of those who rejected HIM and the marriage of those who did trust HIM to the Lamb.
     
  15. 1watchman

    1watchman Overseer Supporter

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    One needs to study the ways and mind of our God, Ted (that comes from studying the Holy "word of God". He gave man a choice today as He did in the "garden at Eden" and man failed. God ALWAYS knows the end from the beginning, and He allowed Satan to test man, and gives man liberty to choose eternal life and the blessings of God, rather than make man as robots to always do as directed. We ARE His children, and as any good Father, He wants us to learn to obey and honor and love Him ---else He would have made us some kind of mechanical robot. Let me suggest you begin reading in John 3; John 14; and all the Gospels in the four New Testament books. I will pray for you.
     
  16. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    His infinite powers are constricted by various things such as (but not limited to): HE will not do anything evil. He will not break anyone's free will.

    Sinners living on earth do NOT have a free will but are enslaved to the addictive power of evil so when HE interferes with their will, HE is breaking their sinful will, not their free will.

    The earth is a prison planet with a reform hospital within it of those who can be redeemed from evil once they accept that the evil of the reprobate unbelievers is eternal and growing...which necessitates they see and experience the evil of the weeds so they mature in holiness. All evil on earth proceeds from the evil hearts and desires of the people on earth though the time and the experience of that evil by others is pre-programmed by GOD.
     
  17. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Does He? And does He always?

    If God constantly intervened to eradicate the evil consequences of evil choices humans make, would they be truly free moral agents? What would your life be, do you think, if God altered the effect of every evil choice you made, conforming the result to His will? If every time you indulged a lustful thought, or fudged on the truth, or acted selfishly, or lost your temper, God interrupted to halt the thought or act, negating your sinful choice in favor of His own holy will and way, what would your life be like?

    Oh? How so? If God did as you describe here, how would we really be free?

    Sometimes, God is simply allowing sin to run its course to illustrate to us just how "exceedingly sinful" sin is. We get a glimpse of why God HATES sin, the sin with which we are often quite comfortable, by letting sin bear its death-bringing "fruit" fully.

    In a world of genuinely free creatures it is possible that God cannot intervene at every turn to negate the effects of the choices of these creatures and maintain genuine creaturely freedom. If this is even possible, it defeats your objection here.

    God wants genuine freedom for His creatures. Such freedom is vital to the love He wants them to express to Himself and toward each other. But, this freedom to choose God necessarily entails the freedom not to choose God. The knife sharp and strong enough to carve wood is necessarily also capable of piercing and cutting human flesh; one simply can't have a knife of the former sort without also having a knife of the latter sort. So, too, with God making us genuinely free moral agents. We can't be made capable of freely choosing to love God without also being capable of hating Him. And when free creatures spurn God, the Source of all light, truth and life, they unavoidably turn to darkness, falsehoods and death. God no more wants the latter circumstance than a maker of a wood-carving knife wants the knife he's made to create beautiful carvings to be used to wound and kill one of his fellows.
     
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