God's 10 Commandments vs Roman Catholic 10 Commandments

YHWH's Lion said:

I would like to discuss how ANYONE thinks that they have the right or authority to change God's Law.

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well that's hanging it out there.
Would youcare to expound a little bit so we can have some idea of where you're going with this?

I am not sure what point you're driving at but the entire set of commandments can be found inside the Catechism:

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/command.htm

The entire passage from Exodus is included. The entire passage from Deuteronomy is right next to it. Then a distillation of them is included right next to that.

YHWH's Lion said: ↑
I would like to discuss how ANYONE thinks that they have the right or authority to change God's Law.

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pdudgeon said:

well that's hanging it out there.
Would you care to expound a little bit so we can have some idea of where you're going with this?

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Well I have enough info in that post to at least say "ok you are right - nobody has the right or authority to change God's Law".

I think that is the "easy part".

YHWH's Lion said:

Which shows exactly what i am saying, the Roman Catholic Church decided to re-write God's 10 Commandments.

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They did not such thing. They included the entire passages from Exodus and Deuteronomy in the Catechism. What you're objecting to is their numbering; the substance is the same.

Here is the official list of the ten commandments from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

YHWH's Lion said:

I would like to discuss how ANYONE thinks that they have the right or authority to change God's Law.

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The OP sounds a little Catholic bashy. But if it's not, just remember the original books of the Bible had no punctuation. So commas and periods can be confusing. The Carholic Ten Commandments come straight from the Bible.

Of the three versions of the ten commandments in the bible (Exodus 34:1-28, Exodus 20:1-17, Deuteronomy 5:1-21) scholars are in general agreement that Exodus 34:1-28 is the oldest. It is also the only version that seld identifies as "the ten commandments. Here they are.

1st commandment

12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles 14 Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. 15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

2nd commandment

17 “Do not make any idols .

3rd commandment

18 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

4th commandment

19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck.

5th commandment

Redeem all your firstborn sons. No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

6th commandment

21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

7th commandment

22 “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year. 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the Lord your God.

8th commandment

25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.

9th commandment

26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God .

10th commandment

“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

YHWH's Lion said:

What are you talking about, they got rid of the 2nd " You shall not make for yourself a graven image" they changed the 4th"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." to "Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day" and they split the 10th into 2.

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They haven't "changed" anything. Those passages are all found in Catholic editions of Bibles. However, they created a numbering system for the Catechism that you don't approve of. That's the real problem you seem to have.

For reference purposes, let us compare the KJV (Masoretic Text) and Sir Lancelot Brenton (LXX) with the Douay-Rheims translation of the Vulgate, beginning with the KJV:

And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

3 The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

4 The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

5 (I stood between the Lord and you at that time, to shew you the word of the Lord: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount saying,

6 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.

13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

17 Thou shalt not kill.

18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.

19 Neither shalt thou steal.

20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Next, here is the Sir Lancelot Brenton translation of the ten commandments from Deuteronomy 5:1-21 (in the Septuagint):

5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them, Hear, Israel, the ordinances and judgments, all that I speak in your ears this day, and ye shall learn them, and observe to do them. 2 The Lord your God made a covenant with you in Choreb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with your fathers, but with you: ye are all here alive this day. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face in the mountain out of the midst of the fire. 5 And I stood between the Lord and you at that time to report to you the words of the Lord, (because ye were afraid before the fire, and ye went not up to the mountain) saying, 6 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

7 Thou shalt have no other gods before my face. 8 Thou shalt not make to thyself an image, nor likeness of any thing, whatever things are in the heaven above, and whatever are in the earth beneath, and whatever are in the waters under the earth. 9 Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor shalt thou serve them; for I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the sins of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation to them that hate me, 10 and doing mercifully to thousands of them that love me, and that keep my commandments. 11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord thy God will certainly not acquit him that takes his name in vain.

12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God commanded thee. 13 Six days thou shalt work, and thou shalt do all thy works; 14 but on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do in it no work, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, thy man-servant, and thy maid-servant, thine ox, and thine ass, and all thy cattle, and the stranger that sojourns in the midst of thee; that thy man-servant may rest, and thy maid, and thine ox, as well as thou. 15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out thence with a mighty hand, and a high arm: therefore the Lord appointed thee to keep the sabbath day and to sanctify it. 16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God commanded thee; that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest live long upon the land, which the Lord thy God gives thee. 17 Thou shalt not commit murder. 18 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 19 Thou shalt not steal. 20 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 21 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, nor his field, nor his man-servant, nor his maid, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any beast of his, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

Also, let us compare this wih the Douay Rheims translation of the RC Vulgate, which is perhaps the most "Catholic" of English language Bibles:

[1] And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: Hear, O Israel, the ceremonies and judgments, which I speak in your ears this day: learn them, and fulfill them in work. [2] The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. [3] He made not the covenant with our fathers, but with us, who are now present and living. [4] He spoke to us face to face in the mount out of the midst of fire. [5] I was the mediator and stood between the Lord and you at that time, to shew you his words, for you feared the fire, and went not up into the mountain, and he said:

[6] I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [7] Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight. [8] Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth. [9] Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them. For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon their children unto the third and fourth generation, to them that hate me, [10] And shewing mercy unto many thousands, to them that love me, and keep my commandments.

[11] Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for he shall not be unpunished that taketh his name upon a vain thing. [12] Observe the day of the sabbath, to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. [13] Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works. [14] The seventh is the day of the sabbath, that is, the rest of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not do any work therein, thou nor thy son nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy ox, nor thy ass, nor any of thy beasts, nor the stranger that is within thy gates: that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest, even as thyself. [15] Remember that thou also didst serve in Egypt, and the Lord thy God brought thee out from thence with a strong hand, and a stretched out arm. Therefore hath he commanded thee that thou shouldst observe the sabbath day.

[16] Honour thy father and mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee, that thou mayst live a long time, and it may be well with thee in the land, which the Lord thy God will give thee.[17] Thou shalt not kill. [18] Neither shalt thou commit adultery. [19] And thou shalt not steal.[20] Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.

[21] Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour' s wife: nor his house, nor his field, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is his.

Based on the above, it seems to me that one cannot argue that anyone tampered with the Ten Commandments, at least not in the original text. One could criticize the RC catechism for numbering them differently, but to do so I think would be a bit of quibbling.

Everything that is written in Exodus is in the Catechism and the only difference would be the numbering which really isn't a difference since both Jewish and Christian groups have numbered them differently over time.

I'm guessing you saw the picture, took it as the truth and then did no further research. A glance at the Catechism would have shown you the picture was wrong.

YHWH's Lion said:

I would like to discuss how ANYONE thinks that they have the right or authority to change God's Law.

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It's the Church's Bible. The Church can do what it likes with it. ;-)

The First Commandment for is "I am the Lord your God... You shall have no gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image". The Church believes that the veneration of icons is not a violation of this given that the incarnation opened up the possibility for iconography with God becoming human, likewise this opened up for humankind to become divine (kenosis-theosis) so the iconographic tradition is capable of including the saints of the Church.

Regarding the Sabbath, the Church considers the Lord's Day, Sunday, to be the day in which Christians should rest and celebrate Mass. This is not without precedence in Scripture given that many times the early Christians are said to have gathered on the Lord's Day and have venerated the day of Christ's Resurrection.

With regards to the coveting of ones neighbours possession and wife. The Church believes that women aren't possessions so logically considers the coveting of a neighbours wife to be fundamentally different to coveting a neighbours horse. I hope you agree.

thecolorsblend said:

They haven't "changed" anything. Those passages are all found in Catholic editions of Bibles. However, they created a numbering system for the Catechism that you don't approve of. That's the real problem you seem to have.

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In truth, the change took place after the Lutheran and Anglican reformations. Lutherans and Anglicans retain the traditional numbering. The change in numbering and emphasis seems to have come about at the hands of the reformed protestants some time later and has been used to support the iconoclastic positions of these other Churches. Since Lutherans and traditional Anglicans are not iconoclasts, why change something that has been accepted by those way smarter than I over many centuries.

MarkRohfrietsch said:

In truth, the change took place after the Lutheran and Anglican reformations. Lutherans and Anglicans retain the traditional numbering. The change in numbering and emphasis seems to have come about at the hands of the reformed protestants some time later and has been used to support the iconoclastic positions of these other Churches. Since Lutherans and traditional Anglicans are not iconoclasts, why change something that has been accepted by those way smarter than I over many centuries.

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There was alas a major outbreak of iconoclasm in England; there was some iconoclasm even under Cranmer, in the form of altar-smashing and relic-smashing, for example.

Wgw said:

There was alas a major outbreak of iconoclasm in England; there was some iconoclasm even under Cranmer, in the form of altar-smashing and relic-smashing, for example.

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Likewise with the Peasants Revolt in Germany and the influence of Karlstadt. Luther was criticized for his support for the military intervention by the Princes; but without such there might have been just as wide a destruction of altars, organs, stained glass, icons, statues and tombs as their was in England. Such great treasures and objects of inspiration; lost, and the desecration of the remains of saints.

MarkRohfrietsch said:

Likewise with the Peasants Revolt in Germany and the influence of Karlstadt. Luther was criticized for his support for the military intervention by the Princes; but without such there might have been just as wide a destruction of altars, organs, stained glass, icons, statues and tombs as their was in England. Such great treasures and objects of inspiration; lost, and the desecration of the remains of saints.

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Indeed.