god

While alot of Christians seem to pull the "free will" card in an attempt to answer the question of evil, how do you explain natural disasters?

Surely, an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being, who truly cared about our well being would not create a world with:

-Earthquakes
-Avalanches
-Sinkholes
-Volcanoes
-Meteors
-Floods
-Hurricanes
-Blizzards
-Tornadoes
-Plagues, epidemics
-Famine

Seriously, just take a gander at this list and ponder the nature of an all-powerful god who claims to have our best interests in mind, but still allows floods to take place that kill a million people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_natural_disasters

Surely, an omnipotent God could have created a universe where we still have free will without the need to be constantly killing innocent people through natural disaster?

What makes you think that God makes natural disasters. Many times these disasters are because of our own actions and how we treat the environment.

How do you know that Satan did not cause the disasters?

People die, that is reality and sometimes it is a person's time to go and that is the way they had to go.

God is not in control of our actions, he guides us and we make our own decisions. Satan is also not in control of our actions, but uses those closest to us and others around us to make us think that God is not real or that God does not love us......all of which are untrue.

MelissaShae said:

What makes you think that God makes natural disasters.

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Well, let me see, God is apparently in charge of all things natural, since you know, he created Nature, and they are called natural disasters for a reason. Are you implying that the omnipotent being that created the universe could not foresee the implications of how he created the earth and did not know that there would be natural disasters on this earth? The point is that he did know that there would be natural disasters and he had no qualms about creating the universe in such a way as to allow their existence. What exactly is so benevolent about allowing millions of people to die of bubonic plague, lightning, or cancer?

Many times these disasters are because of our own actions and how we treat the environment.

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Please explain how human actions have anything to do with earthquakes and tornadoes. Face it, almost all natural disasters have absolutely nothing to do with conscious human decisions on an individual level. I'm not talking about unforeseen butterfly effects, but conscious, willful decisions. Where is the justice?

How do you know that Satan did not cause the disasters?

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God is the omnipotent one here, not Satan. This means that ultimately everything that happens in the universe is allowed by God. Even if satan does cause natural disasters, which I don't see any good reason to believe, when God created Satan he certainly knew what he would eventually do and it was within his power to create satan in such a way that even with freewill he could not cause natural disasters. This surely couldnt be a problem for an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being.

OrestesMantra said:

Well, let me see, God is apparently in charge of all things natural, since you know, he created Nature, and they are called natural disasters for a reason. Are you implying that the omnipotent being that created the universe could not foresee the implications of how he created the earth and did not know that there would be natural disasters on this earth? The point is that he did know that there would be natural disasters and he had no qualms about creating the universe in such a way as to allow their existence. What exactly is so benevolent about allowing millions of people to die of bubonic plague, lightning, or cancer?


Please explain how human actions have anything to do with earthquakes and tornadoes. Face it, almost all natural disasters have absolutely nothing to do with conscious human decisions on an individual level. I'm not talking about unforeseen butterfly effects, but conscious, willful decisions. Where is the justice?



God is the omnipotent one here, not Satan. This means that ultimately everything that happens in the universe is allowed by God. Even if satan does cause natural disasters, which I don't see any good reason to believe, when God created Satan he certainly knew what he would eventually do and it was within his power to create satan in such a way that even with freewill he could not cause natural disasters. This surely couldnt be a problem for an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being.

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This is not the debate forum so I am not going to engage in a debate with you here.

I stick to my beliefs and you will not sway me.

God did create the Angel Lucifer and Lucifer was created with free will just as all of us are. Lucifer chose to disobey God (which many people do now) and do what he wanted to and brainwashed other angels into following him instead of God. Did God forsee this event, I have no idea. God is not to make our decisions for us, but to guide us and then we are to use that guidance and follow him.

..blessed are those who haven't seen me and believe anyway. John 20:29

Some interesting verses...

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

Best of luck.

IndyEllis said:

Some interesting verses...

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

Best of luck.

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You have to read these and then go back and see what the hebrew translation for evil is because it has many different meanings and doesn't always mean what we associate it to today.

And you have to take all the verses together.....not just picking out one and ignoring the others.



http://www.newadvent.org/bible/isa045.htm

45:1. Thus saith the Lord to my anointed Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue nations before his face, and to turn the backs of kings, and to open the doors before him, and the gates shall not be shut.
45:2. I will go before thee, and will humble the great ones of the earth: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and will burst the bars of iron.
45:3. And I will give thee hidden treasures, and the concealed riches of secret places: that thou mayest know that I am the Lord who call thee by thy name, the God of Israel.
45:4. For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have made a likeness of thee, and thou hast not known me.
45:5. I am the Lord, and there is none else: there is no God besides me: I girded thee, and thou hast not known me:
45:6. That they may know who are from the rising of the sun, and they who are from the west, that there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is none else:
45:7. I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
Create evil, etc... The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin.

45:8. Drop down dew, ye heavens, from above, and let the clouds rain the just: let the earth be opened, and bud forth a saviour: and let justice spring up together: I the Lord have created him.
45:9. Woe to him that gainsayeth his maker, a sherd of the earthen pots: shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it: What art thou making, and thy work is without hands?
45:10. Woe to him that saith to his father: Why begettest thou? and to the woman: Why dost thou bring forth?
45:11. Thus saith the Lord the Holy One of Israel, his maker: Ask me of things to come, concerning my children, and concerning the work of my hands give ye charge to me.
45:12. I made the earth: and I created man upon it: my hand stretched forth the heavens, and I have commanded all their host.
45:13. I have raised him up to justice, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and let go my captives, not for ransom, nor for presents, saith the Lord the God of hosts.
45:14. Thus saith the Lord: The labour of Egypt, and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and of Sabaim, men of stature shall come over to thee, and shall be thine: they shall walk after thee, they shall go bound with manacles: and they shall worship thee, and shall make supplication to thee: only in thee is God, and there is no God besides thee.
45:15. Verily thou art a hidden God, the God of Israel the saviour.
45:16. They are all confounded and ashamed: the forgers of errors are gone together into confusion.
45:17. Israel is saved in the Lord with an eternal salvation: you shall not be confounded, and you shall not be ashamed for ever and ever.
45:18. For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens, God himself that formed the earth, and made it, the very maker thereof: he did not create it in vain: he formed it to be inhabited. I am the Lord, and there is no other.
45:19. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I have not said to the seed of Jacob: Seek me in vain. I am the Lord that speak justice, that declare right things.
45:20. Assemble yourselves, and come, and draw near together, ye that are saved of the Gentiles: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven work, and pray to a god that cannot save.
45:21. Tell ye, and come, and consult together: who hath declared this from the beginning, who hath foretold this from that time? Have not I the Lord, and there is no God else besides me? A just God and a saviour, there is none besides me.
45:22. Be converted to me, and you shall be saved, all ye ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is no other.
45:23. I have sworn by myself, the word of justice shall go out of my mouth, and shall not return:
45:24. For every knee shall be bowed to me, and every tongue shall swear.
45:25. Therefore shall he say: In the Lord are my justices and empire: they shall come to him, and all that resist him shall be confounded.
45:26. In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified and praised.

• If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? (Amos 3:6, NASB)
• When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it? (Amos 3:6, NIV)

You are using raah (evil) in the wrong context. In all the verses you listed God is speaking of calamity and disaster not evil of sin.

OrestesMantra said:

While alot of Christians seem to pull the "free will" card in an attempt to answer the question of evil, how do you explain natural disasters?

Surely, an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being, who truly cared about our well being would not create a world with:

-Earthquakes
-Avalanches
-Sinkholes
-Volcanoes
-Meteors
-Floods
-Hurricanes
-Blizzards
-Tornadoes
-Plagues, epidemics
-Famine

Seriously, just take a gander at this list and ponder the nature of an all-powerful god who claims to have our best interests in mind, but still allows floods to take place that kill a million people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_natural_disasters

Surely, an omnipotent God could have created a universe where we still have free will without the need to be constantly killing innocent people through natural disaster?

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God can certainly create natural disasters if He wants to, however, that doesn't mean He desires (wills) to use that method. The bible never teaches that God creates all natural disasters in the world. The bible does state that when the "fall of man" happened, the earth fell with him ("creation groaned"):

note: creation = earth in the verses below....

Rom 8:18-22
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.

That being said, God does work in mysterious ways in our world daily. The bible promises that whatever happens in the world, God can take that and work it for good (ROM 8:28). That is the basis of our faith and hope and ability to cope with a "broken" world. There is nothing that is beyond God's power to redeem and use for His purposes.

subway said:

God created the devil-
The devil is a creation made by the creater and the creator is god.
To create something like the devil, one's imagination must have a trace of evil in it?

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god did not create the devil, nearly every satanist will tell you that satanism is based on prechristain religon.

This is thier point of view though and is probably biased in satans favour.

I just thought I would post and say be carefull when dealing with religion, thier are alot of them. lol

Just because God can does not mean that he does. He can do what he wills, but not everything that happens is an act of God.

Fin1234 said:

god did not create the devil, nearly every satanist will tell you that satanism is based on prechristain religon.

This is thier point of view though and is probably biased in satans favour.

I just thought I would post and say be carefull when dealing with religion, thier are alot of them. lol

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Satan exited before man.... Your statement that satanism is based on prechristian religion doesn't hold water. Your statement only holds water if God doesn't exist which is what I believe you meant since you don't believe in God. All your statement is saying is that God does not exist.

No, I believe in god.

However this is what the satanists are claiming not me!

modern satanism (one of the many sects) is based on pagan religons, pagon= pre christianity. However this argument was presented to me by a satanist and thier is a chance of it being baised.

I'm just saying it is good we queston our beliefs. Because if we question them but still keep faith, then our faith is stronger as we know that it can logicaly stand on two feet.

[The jinn we know as Satan was created from fire. Before his obedience and sincerity were tested through Adam, he had been in the company of angels, acting and worshiping as they did. Unlike angels, however, who cannot rebel against God (At-Tahrim 66:6), Satan was free to choose his own path of conduct. When God tested him and the angels by commanding them to prostrate before Adam, the seeds of his self-conceit and disobedience blossomed and swallowed him. He replied in his vanity, (I am better than him. You created me from fire, whilst him you did create of clay) (Saad 38:76).
Why was Satan created? Satan was created for important purposes. If Satan, who continually tries to seduce us, did not exist, our creation would be meaningless and futile. God has innumerable servants who cannot rebel and thus do whatever they are told. In fact, the existence of an absolute Divine Being Who has many beautiful names and attributes requires, not because of some external necessity but because of the essential nature of His names, that His names be manifest.
God gave us free will so that we could know good from evil. In addition, He gave us great potentials. Our development of these potentials and our struggle to choose between good and evil make us experience a constant battle in our inner and outer worlds. Just as God sends hawks upon sparrows so that the latter will develop their potential to escape, He created Satan and allowed him to tempt us so that our resistance to temptation will raise us spiritually and strengthen our willpower. Just as hunger stimulates human beings and animals to further exertion and discovery of new ways to be satisfied, and fear inspires new defenses, Satan’s temptations cause us to develop our potentials and guard against sin.
There is an infinitely long line of spiritual evolution between the ranks of the greatest prophets and saints down to those of people like Pharaoh and Nimrod; therefore it cannot be claimed that the creation of Satan is evil. Although Satan is evil and serves various important purposes, God’s creation involves the whole universe and should be understood in relation to the results, not only with respect to the acts themselves. Whatever God does or creates is good and beautiful in itself or in its effects. For example, rain and fire are very useful but can cause great harm when abused; therefore, one cannot claim that the creation of water and fire is not totally good. It is the same with the creation of Satan. His main purpose is to cause us to develop our potential, strengthen our willpower by resisting his temptations, and then rise to higher spiritual ranks.
To the argument made by some that Satan leads many people to unbelief and subsequent punishment in Hell, I would reply with the following:
First, although Satan was created for many good, universal purposes, many people may be deceived by him. But Satan only whispers and suggests; he cannot force you to indulge in evil and sin. If you are so weak that his false promises deceive you and you allow yourself to be dragged down, you earn the punishment of Hell by misusing an important God-given faculty that enables you to develop your potential and raise to the highest rank. You must use your free will, which makes you human and gives you the highest position in creation, properly, and to further your intellectual and spiritual evolution. Otherwise, you must complain about being honored with free will and therefore about being human.
Second, as quality is much more important than quantity, we should consider qualitative, as opposed to quantitative, values when making our judgment. For example, 100 date seeds are worth only 100 cents if they are not planted. If only 20 out of 100 seeds grow into trees due to the other 80 being destroyed by too much water, can we argue that it is evil to plant and water the seeds? I think all of us can agree that it is wholly good to have 20 trees in exchange for 100 seeds, since 20 trees will produce 20,000 seeds.
Again, 100 peacock eggs may be worth a couple of dollars. But if only 20 eggs hatch and the rest do not, who will say that it is wrong to risk 80 eggs being spoiled in return for 20 peacocks? On the contrary, it is wholly good to have 20 peacocks at the expense of 80 eggs, for those 20 peacocks will lay even more eggs.
It is the same with humanity. By fighting Satan and their evil-commanding selves, many “worthless” people have been lost in exchange for thousands of prophets, millions of saints, and billions of men and women of wisdom and knowledge, sincerity and good morals. All of these people are the sun, moon, and stars of the human world.]