God, The Devil, and Revelation

FormerZombie · Apr 7, 2006

food4thought - so, he's judged already.. i knew that, but the devil can escape the sentencing - by not following Revelations - what's God gonna do? Is God gonna go ahead and throw Satan in the burning lake without fulfilling Revelations first? That would make God a liar - and it's the Devil's out... God isn't going to compromise His own character - because not fulfilling Revelations would make it a false prophecy - a lie... when it's supposed to be the word of God.

food4thought · Apr 7, 2006

FormerZombie said:
food4thought - so, he's judged already.. i knew that, but the devil can escape the sentencing - by not following Revelations - what's God gonna do? Is God gonna go ahead and throw Satan in the burning lake without fulfilling Revelations first? That would make God a liar - and it's the Devil's out... God isn't going to compromise His own character - because not fulfilling Revelations would make it a false prophecy - a lie... when it's supposed to be the word of God.

Don't know for sure, but we could speculate... all I can say is that there is nothing else that God will allow Satan to do during that time. For all his pomp, pride, and parading, all he can do is obey God when God over rules him. God, as the soveriegn creator, has the right to over rule the free will that He freely bestows upon us (and, I believe, the angels). That is one of the awe-inspiring things about Him and our relationship to Him. He has the power and the Divine right to treat us like robots and force us to do His will, yet He allows us (within limits) to rebel and do our thing (to our own sorrow). AND YET HE STILL LOVES US AND OFFERS US REDEMPTION AND SALVATION!!!

Truth0r · Apr 9, 2006

food4thought said:
Don't know for sure, but we could speculate... all I can say is that there is nothing else that God will allow Satan to do during that time. For all his pomp, pride, and parading, all he can do is obey God when God over rules him. God, as the soveriegn creator, has the right to over rule the free will that He freely bestows upon us (and, I believe, the angels). That is one of the awe-inspiring things about Him and our relationship to Him. He has the power and the Divine right to treat us like robots and force us to do His will, yet He allows us (within limits) to rebel and do our thing (to our own sorrow). AND YET HE STILL LOVES US AND OFFERS US REDEMPTION AND SALVATION!!!

Can you conclusively give a modern example of God overriding someone's free will?

So I guess it wasn't quite bad enough when Satan persuaded 1/3 of all heaven's angels to join his side for God to put an end to it then? Why would God keep Satan around long enough for him to destroy so much of heaven if he has omniscience? Isn't heaven supposed to be perfect? - apparently only most of the time. Why did God even create Satan if he knew what he would eventually do? Why does God need to create beings that worship Him but then if they don't worship Him, they must suffer eternal damnation?

A real LOVING God wouldn't have allowed Satan to cause chaos in heaven or here on earth. It would seem God is just as about as responsible for humanities' present condition as Satan is.

Truth0r · Apr 9, 2006

BlakeMichael said:
As far as free will goes, in a sense, Satan is needed. There wouldn't be much 'free will' if the choice wasn't there to serve God or not to serve God. Was there no other option, free will wouldn't exist, as there would only be one choice.

How then did Lucifer have the "free will" to fall away from God if there was no Satan before him?

*Moderator - You may delete my posts and allow ideas to go unchallenged. That's wisdom! I found out about the policy after I posted. I will no longer pay attention to anything but the Discussion & Debate sub-forum where I hopefully may freely speak.*

*~DJ~* · Apr 9, 2006

God allows free will among men and angels because He loves us so much He wants us to CHOOSE Him. Free will is a gift from God, not a rebelious nature from Satan. Lucifer had free will to choose and he chose wrong. There is no need for any other being to be the cause of Satan's sin. He did it himself. A LOVING God would allow free will. Who wants to be a slave?

matthewgoh · Apr 9, 2006

FormerZombie said:
Why would the Devil then perform suicidal actions when an omnipotent being says He will judge him after doing them? Why do them, when the Devil can hold God captive with God's own words? God cannot judge the Devil without those actions being performed, or the book of Revelations makes God into a liar.

One possibility is that Satan will never bow to goodness no matter what - maybe is evil's nature. Jesus says no one knows the time and hour except God. Even if Satan can change the course of event, it will still happen because "no one knows the time and hour". Furthermore, delaying the end time only means that more souls will be saved. Naturally God wants to delay the end time (to save more souls) and Satan wants the end time to happen sooner. It's a kind of dilemma to Satan, but he will choose death (opposite to God's will) at the end.

Just my thought, merely for discussion purpose. Nobody knows, except Satan himself and God of course.

food4thought · Apr 10, 2006

Truth0r said:
Can you conclusively give a modern example of God overriding someone's free will?

So I guess it wasn't quite bad enough when Satan persuaded 1/3 of all heaven's angels to join his side for God to put an end to it then? Why would God keep Satan around long enough for him to destroy so much of heaven if he has omniscience? Isn't heaven supposed to be perfect? - apparently only most of the time. Why did God even create Satan if he knew what he would eventually do? Why does God need to create beings that worship Him but then if they don't worship Him, they must suffer eternal damnation?

A real LOVING God wouldn't have allowed Satan to cause chaos in heaven or here on earth. It would seem God is just as about as responsible for humanities' present condition as Satan is.

I can't conclusively prove in any truly scientific way, but I can say that He constrained me by circumstances from doing things that I definitely wanted to do!

God's reasons for Satan's rebellion are not detailed for us in Scripture, so any attempt by me to answer "why" God allowed it would be speculation at best... but then again most of my remarks have been speculative so far, soo... My guess would be that God allowed Satans rebellion for the same reasons that He gave man free will and allowed us to rebel: choice=real love. No choice=computer. Love requires real ability to chose, or it is only a charade. I could still enjoy God's presence without the ability to chose, but not love Him.

As for the heavens:

2Pet 2:13) But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

and

Rev 21:1-7 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. (2) And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. (3) And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, (4) and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." (5) And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He *said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." (6) Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. (7) "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

God is the Author of man, and with us He created our ability to rebel, yet we are responsible for the choice to rebel. The ultimate good of the ability for there to be a perfect loving relationship between man and God for all eternity trumps the present sufferings of this world (Rom 8:14-23).

Hope that helps.

Cole2026 · Apr 21, 2006

A couple things:

First, if you look at universal evidence, everything comes from God. God is, and because of that everything else is in Him. Therefore, the chapter of Revelation will happen, no matter what, despite any type of awareness.

Plus, just a very basic thought: because the Bible is a holy book, wouldn't the devil be unable to access it?

Key · Apr 22, 2006

FormerZombie said:
I have recently come across a logical inconsistency in the Bible. It concerns the relationship of God, the Devil, and the book of Revelation. It goes something like this:

God cannot lie.

The book of Revelation is one of God's truths (not lying).

The book of Revelation says that the Devil will perform certain actions before the Final Judgement.

The Devil can read the book of Revelation and choose to not perform the actions therein, making God into a liar, which He cannot be.

Why would the Devil then perform suicidal actions when an omnipotent being says He will judge him after doing them? Why do them, when the Devil can hold God captive with God's own words? God cannot judge the Devil without those actions being performed, or the book of Revelations makes God into a liar.

One of my main gripes with Christian apologetics is that much of the time it has the christian squirming, twisting, and torturing with explanations to make things fit. The only thing I can think of to fight the logic of the above is for the christian to squirm and say that the devil is stupid, suicidal, or illiterate.

Because, simpley put.

The Devil knows God better then we do.
The Devil is beyond us, just as God is Beyond us.
Their Logic and Reasion are diffrent then Ours.

Here is what we Know abut the Devil regarding God.
He Knows God does not Lie
He knows he will do all that Revelation sais he will do, because God said he will do those things.

In the end, he does not posses the power to make God into a Liar.

So maybe he has come to accept his fate.

Unlike, well, us pride filled humans.

When we believe that we can overcome God, or Trap God into little Boxes.

Such is not the Case, nor shall it ever be.

God Bless

Key.

Cole2026 · Apr 22, 2006

Key said:
Because, simpley put.

The Devil knows God better then we do.
The Devil is beyond us, just as God is Beyond us.
Their Logic and Reasion are diffrent then Ours.

Here is what we Know abut the Devil regarding God.
He Knows God can not Lie
He knows he will do all that Revelation sais he will do, because God said he will do those things.

In the end, he does not posses the power to make God into a Liar.

So maybe he has come to accept his fate.

Unlike, well, us pride filled humans.

When we believe that we can overcome God, or Trap God into little Boxes.

Such is not the Case, nor shall it ever be.

God Bless

Key.

By saying God cannot lie aren't you limiting his power by saying that he is unable of doing something.

I would change it to "God will not lie, ever".

Key · Apr 22, 2006

Cole2026 said:
By saying God cannot lie aren't you limiting his power by saying that he is unable of doing something.

I would change it to "God will not lie, ever".

Oo good catch !

Thanks, I'm going to edit that Post, thanks..

God Bless
Key

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